# Effect if France moves forward to banning burqas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435 "2010-01-25T22:56:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/21 "2010-02-02T08:38:29Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > and the problem with this is…? The assumption that this is exclusively a problem with immigrants, is one that springs to mind. As far as I know, it’s possible to be a French citizen, and also a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/22 "2010-02-02T09:01:13Z")
It’s stuff like this that makes me glad I live in California. At least I don’t have to worry about the government telling my mom she can’t wear a sari or telling me I can’t wear a kurta pajama. And I look really hot in a couple of my kurta pajamas. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/23 "2010-02-02T09:35:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why would you assume there’s a positive aspect to it ? No matter what the PC reasons given for it are, the underlying reason is and remains : “This is France. Women don’t wear burqas here. Assimilate, or go back to \*your \*country, brownie”. Except for the last word those are completely reasonable demands. It is France. Women should not be wearing burqas. And immigrants should assimilate. Besides that, there will be next to no effects since so few women wear burqas. Al Qaeda might bitch, but who gives a shit what they say and besides they already have the scarf ban to bitch about and Bob Laden is probably busy with his new green environmental agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/24 "2010-02-02T13:21:05Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Except for the last word those are completely reasonable demands. It is France. Women should not be wearing burqas. And immigrants should assimilate. Really? I mean… _really_? Is that just because it’s burqas, or should they expect to have to blend in in every way? It’s France, not the Borg. Also, what about Muslim women who are _not_ immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/25 "2010-02-02T13:47:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Really? I mean… _really_? Is that just because it’s burqas, or should they expect to have to blend in in every way? It’s France, not the Borg. > > Also, what about Muslim women who are _not_ immigrants? No really. Really really. Yes they should assimilate to a reasonable amount. If they want to live in a place where burqas are commonplace and an acceptable part of the culture, there are other places they can immigrate to. But it is off topic so perhaps you want to take it to another thread. What about Muslim women that are not immigrants? There have already been many other threads about the burqa. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/26 "2010-02-02T14:22:25Z")
Off topic? You brought the subject up. I could see assimilation requirements working at the point of immigration - i.e. _if you want to come in, you have to do this_, but is it really fair to impose them retrospectively on people who may have been there for years, or may not be immigrants at all? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/27 "2010-02-02T17:39:10Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Except for the last word those are completely reasonable demands. It is France. Women should not be wearing burqas. And immigrants should assimilate. To a point, I agree. I would have a problem if they refused to learn French at all, didn’t recognize the state’s authority or insisted on Shariah law for everyone. However, I don’t see a culture-influenced choice of \*clothing \*to be an opposition or obstacle to integration, any more that I see couscous restaurants or hookah bars to be OMAGOD NOT FRENCH!! (though the hookah bars were regrettably all closed down with the no smoking ban. Shame, I enjoyed them a lot). Besides, there have been no laws to ban the various [lace hats](http://www.abtof.org.uk/Office/content/S633329825773466250/SCHULTE-KELLINGHAUS%20Martin%20Crtb%20Costumes.jpg) of Brittany for instance. So if there’s a hard line push to dress casually or DIE, then there’s _still_ hypocrisy and double standards. And of course, as \*\*Mangetout \*\*rightly says, not everyone who wears a veil or even a burqah is an immigrant. In many cases, they were born here, went to school here, have a job here, married here, got kids here. There’s nowhere to send them back to : they’re French. And if they opt to wear a burqa, then burqas are worn in France, by French people. It’s part of the cultural panorama. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/28 "2010-02-02T17:45:02Z")
> [@Jump](#): > > Isn’t it more a “ban on overtly religious symbols” and not just the burqa? Or was that how it was in schools? Yes, ostensibly the school ban targeted any and all overt religious symbols including yarmulkes or ostentatious crosses, though it wasn’t called “the veil affair” for no reason ;). This one, however, only concerns burqas. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/29 "2010-02-02T22:16:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Argent’s post got me thinking and it’s true, we wouldn’t really expect other cultures to adapt to us, the “civilized” Western world is always bending over backwards to try to not offend these more, frankly, backwards countries. This is so true. When the French had its colonies, they never, ever tried to impose French culture on those colonies. I distinctly recall that all French persons, private and government alike, had to become completely fluent in the local language before they could move to or work in a colony. That’s why today, almost nobody in former french colonies speak French, because the French bent over backwards to assimilate into the local culture. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/30 "2010-02-03T12:01:43Z")
One small effect, all good: > [@](#): > > A foreign national who forced his French wife to wear the full Islamic veil will be denied French citizenship, the immigration minister said Tuesday. > > Eric Besson said he had signed a decree rejecting the man’s citizenship application after it emerged that he had ordered his wife to cover herself with the head-to-toe veil. > > “It emerged during the inquiry and the interview process that this person forced his wife to wear the full veil, deprived her of freedom of movement with her face exposed and rejected the principles of secularism and equality between men and women,” said Besson in a statement. [Man who forced wife to wear burqa is denied French citizenship](http://www.france24.com/en/20100202-french-citizenship-denied-man-burqa-eric-besson-islam-immigration-muslim) ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/31 "2010-02-03T12:14:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > There are two obvious ways to avoid the ban: not wearing the burqa or not going out in public. I get the feeling too many of the people affected would choose the latter rather than the former. Or have that chosen for them, if it is in fact an instance of burqa and niqab being forced upon the women as an obligation of marriage/residence in their fathers’ homes, and not their own choice. So France denies citizenship to a man who forced his wife into burqa. So now what? He goes home to wherever he’s from, and his wife not only has no freedom, she doesn’t even have the _opportunity_ of freedom that she’d have had, if she could’ve stayed in France. _That’s_ useful. “We’re so concerned with your freedom, we’re going to send you back to where there is no chance that you’ll ever get any! Au bientot!” ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/32 "2010-02-03T15:40:01Z")
A man who has nothing to contribute to European society that we want is sent back to where he came from. That’s a positive. The woman either has nothing to contribute, or if forced to wear a burka, unable to contribute anything. If she is forced to wear a burka and would rather be wearing a short top and designer jeans, sucks for her, but the overall effect would still be a positive for France without men forcing their women to wear burkas and burka-clad women. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/33 "2010-02-03T22:28:04Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > This is so true. When the French had its colonies, they never, ever tried to impose French culture on those colonies. I distinctly recall that all French persons, private and government alike, had to become completely fluent in the local language before they could move to or work in a colony. That’s why today, almost nobody in former french colonies speak French, because the French bent over backwards to assimilate into the local culture. See, that’s why I can tell you’re a foreigner. You just don’t get it. What really happened is, after we’d colonized them thar backwards places, they became _de facto_ part of France. So it’s the locals who had to assimilate. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435/34 "2010-02-03T22:45:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > See, that’s why I can tell you’re a foreigner. You just don’t get it. > What really happened is, after we’d colonized them thar backwards places, they became _de facto_ part of France. So it’s the locals who had to assimilate. > > 🙂 I do get it. For example, there used to be this place called Vietnam which was a French colony. Now, if any Frenchman wanted to go to Vietnam, he was expected to speak Vietnamese and dress like a Vietnamese (because the French were so busy bending over backwards to the local culture). One day, a few Frenchman showed up in Saigon wearing jaunty berets instead of Vietnamese clothing. And _poof_, just like that, Vietnam completely disappeared. That’s why today, Saigon is known as Jaunty Beret City. You start letting a few people run around Paris wearing burqas, and in a few years, Paris is going to be called Jaunty Burqa City. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effect-if-france-moves-forward-to-banning-burqas/526435.md?page=1)