# Effective homemade surgical face masks -- possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 14, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465 "2020-03-14T04:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/21 "2020-03-18T02:49:39Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > If you’re trying to block viruses, they’re not effective. Some particulates can get blocked on the surface and within the fibres of the mask I suppose but saying that this better than nothing is like saying using a newspaper as a cover in a monsoon is better than nothing. Technically, better than nothing. Effective? Not really. Plus, those viruses that do get caught in the fibres can get inhaled if the mask isn’t changed regularly, which is every 20 minutes to two hours depending on who you ask. What about adding soap to the mask? The discussions around hand washing have mentioned that soap binds to the lipids of the virus. If some soap was rubbed on the fabric, would that attraction act to pull the airborne virus to the soap as it passed through and make it less likely to get inhaled? ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/22 "2020-03-18T05:28:27Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > What about adding soap to the mask? The discussions around hand washing have mentioned that soap binds to the lipids of the virus. If some soap was rubbed on the fabric, would that attraction act to pull the airborne virus to the soap as it passed through and make it less likely to get inhaled? Are you talking about rubbing a bar of soap on a mask? That’s not going to do much because soap needs water to dissolve in to activate it’s cleansing property. And using soapy water is a no-no too because masks need to be dry to be effective. (Imagine a wet tissue or paper towel soaked with germs on your mouth and nose.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/23 "2020-03-18T06:06:16Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > If the goal is to block droplets of saliva, masks will work. So will anything covering your face, like a burka. Right, but as pointed out in the other thread already, a burqa is very impractical for most people compared to wearing a mask. It’s a silly rhetorical point. > [@](#): > > If you’re trying to block viruses, they’re not effective. Some particulates can get blocked on the surface and within the fibres of the mask I suppose but saying that this better than nothing is like saying using a newspaper as a cover in a monsoon is better than nothing. That’s not what the actual scientists were saying in the paper I cited. It’s interesting that you chose to ignore it and just continue with your WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/24 "2020-03-18T07:39:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Right, but as pointed out in the other thread already, a burqa is very impractical for most people compared to wearing a mask. > It’s a silly rhetorical point. How is a burka more impractical compared to a mask? They’re both easy to wear and remove. Burkas give you more protection in terms of overall coverage and they’re washable and reusable. Besides, a burka was just an example. There are countless substitutes for a mask if you don’t want to get sprayed with saliva. > [@](#): > > That’s not what the actual scientists were saying in the paper I cited. It’s interesting that you chose to ignore it and just continue with your WAG. I’ve seen that study you cited. That is hardly conclusive evidence that face masks are effective. The experiment was done in a controlled environment to gather numbers for future modeling and admits to its limitations. It even says: > [@](#): > > As stated, the present work is only a first step to investigate the performance of facemasks There is no scientist or health organization that advocates the use of masks to prevent the wearer from infection. Here are some studies stating face masks are not effective. > **[Surgical masks not effective, study shows | 2009-10-01 | AHC Media:…](https://www.reliasmedia.com/articles/114492-surgical-masks-not-effective-study-shows)** > > Surgical masks do not provide protection from aerosolized viral particles, respiratory protection experts told an Institute of Medicine (IOM) panel that was considering personal protective equipment and novel H1N1. > **[Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: a systematic review |...](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic-review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05)** > > Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: a systematic review - Volume 138 Issue 4 ---
**Author:** ![PlentyFairy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@PlentyFairy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlentyFairy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/25 "2020-03-18T09:55:08Z")
In regard to Covid-19, a face mask is only usable for people who have coughs or symptoms of the virus to prevent or minimize the virus or bacteria coming out from their mouth or nose infecting people surrounding them. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/26 "2020-03-18T14:13:47Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > How is a burka more impractical compared to a mask? They’re both easy to wear and remove. Burkas give you more protection in terms of overall coverage and they’re washable and reusable. You really want me to list the reasons why a burqa is impractical for me to wear? An item of clothing intended for devout Muslim women, that mostly covers parts of the body that I don’t care about covering and may well cause as much offense to some pople as blacking up? You are using burkas as a rhetorical thing, just like you did in the other thread, and just like I would be willing to bet you probably do IRL. It’s a very silly point, and doubling down on it is just being facetious. > [@](#): > > Besides, a burka was just an example. There are countless substitutes for a mask if you don’t want to get sprayed with saliva. Probably. In this context we would probably refer to those substitutes as home-made masks. So it’s a pointless deflection. > [@](#): > > The experiment was done in a controlled environment to gather numbers for future modeling and admits to its limitations. Science papers almost always admit to their limitations. “Further research is needed” is almost a mandatory sign off in this context. Nonetheless, it’s solid data strongly suggesting that masks do have protective benefit, and even surgical masks (to a lesser degree). > [@](#): > > There is no scientist or health organization that advocates the use of masks to prevent the wearer from infection. Wrong. The [WHO](https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks) and [ECDC](https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/COVID-19-guidance-wearing-and-removing-personal-protective-equipment-healthcare-settings-updated.pdf) [PDF link] suggest that masks should be worn by anyone knowingly being exposed to the virus e.g. if caring for a family member known to have covid-19. The [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html#respirators) also recommends masks but limits the recommendation only to healthcare professionals. Meanwhile most [East](http://en.nhc.gov.cn/2020-02/07/c_76344.htm)[Asian](https://www.nippon.com/en/news/yjj2020030400075/japan-to-provide-hokkaido-with-4-million-masks.html) health organizations are recommending masks for use by the general public, even mandating their use. So, I stand by what I said before “It’s not that simple”. But note that none of these agencies are suggesting masks are useless or “like holding a newspaper in a hurricane”. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/27 "2020-03-18T14:49:02Z")
> [@PlentyFairy](#): > > In regard to Covid-19, a face mask is only usable for people who have coughs or symptoms of the virus to prevent or minimize the virus or bacteria coming out from their mouth or nose infecting people surrounding them. An N95 mask can help. Problem is they are all sold out. > **[Can wearing a face mask protect you from the new coronavirus?](https://www.livescience.com/face-mask-new-coronavirus.html)** > > If you're sick with COVID-19 or caring for someone who is, you should wear a face mask. > [@](#): > > A more specialized mask, known as an N95 respirator, can protect against the new coronavirus, also called SARS-CoV-2. The respirator is thicker than a surgical mask, but neither Schaffner nor the Centers for Disease Prevention and Control (CDC) recommend it for public use, at least not at this point. [https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html) > [@](#): > > What is an N95 filtering facepiece respirator (FFR)? > An N95 FFR is a type of respirator which removes particles from the air that are breathed through it. These respirators filter out at least 95% of very small (0.3 micron) particles. N95 FFRs are capable of filtering out all types of particles, including bacteria and viruses. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/28 "2020-03-18T14:57:51Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > Are you talking about rubbing a bar of soap on a mask? That’s not going to do much because soap needs water to dissolve in to activate it’s cleansing property. And using soapy water is a no-no too because masks need to be dry to be effective. (Imagine a wet tissue or paper towel soaked with germs on your mouth and nose.) I was thinking more about dipping a cloth in soapy water and letting it dry so that the soap molecules are stuck to the fibers. So then when the virus passes through the fabric, the soapy fibers are better able to attract and hold the virus rather than just plain fibers. I know when I’ve had to clean a spot on the carpet and I don’t get all the soap up, the spot seems to attract a lot of dirt and I may need to shampoo it again later. I guess that is from the stickyness of the residual soap capturing dust and whatever. If someone is facing the option of no mask or an improvised mask, I’m wondering if the soap infused fabric would make a more effective mask than just plain fabric. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/29 "2020-03-18T23:36:41Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You really want me to list the reasons why a burqa is impractical for me to wear? > An item of clothing intended for devout Muslim women, that mostly covers parts of the body that I don’t care about covering and may well cause as much offense to some pople as blacking up? > > You are using burkas as a rhetorical thing, just like you did in the other thread, and just like I would be willing to bet you probably do IRL. It’s a very silly point, and doubling down on it is just being facetious. I’m not sure what you mean by “rhetorical thing” but I’m using burkas as an example. They’re just as practical as face masks for what you’re trying to achieve, if not more so. And equating wearing a burka to “blacking up” is offensive to the work civil rights movement has done so I suggest you tone down the rhetoric. > [@](#): > > Science papers almost always admit to their limitations. “Further research is needed” is almost a mandatory sign off in this context. Nonetheless, it’s solid data strongly suggesting that masks do have protective benefit, and even surgical masks (to a lesser degree). We’re talking about surgical masks here, not respirators. It’s interesting you chose to ignore the studies I cited debunking the effectiveness of mask and continue to cling to your one and only reference like it’s your life preserver to help you from sinking. > [@](#): > > Wrong. The [WHO](https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks) and [ECDC](https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/COVID-19-guidance-wearing-and-removing-personal-protective-equipment-healthcare-settings-updated.pdf) [PDF link] suggest that masks should be worn by anyone knowingly being exposed to the virus e.g. if caring for a family member known to have covid-19. > The [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html#respirators) also recommends masks but limits the recommendation only to healthcare professionals. From your WHO link: > [@](#): > > If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection. From your ECDC link: > [@](#): > > Guidance for wearing and removing personal protective equipment in healthcare settings for the care of patients with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 It only talks about how to wear a mask for a narrow field of people. None of you links even hint at their effectiveness. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile most [East](http://en.nhc.gov.cn/2020-02/07/c_76344.htm)[Asian](https://www.nippon.com/en/news/yjj2020030400075/japan-to-provide-hokkaido-with-4-million-masks.html) health organizations are recommending masks for use by the general public, even mandating their use. Asian countries wear masks as a matter of social habit borne from several factors including history, religion and mores like etiquette. None of your links talk about masks being effective. If they were, why aren’t Western governments following suit? I repeat, there is no scientist or health organization that advocates the use of masks to prevent the wearer from infection and your cites haven’t proved otherwise. [/Quote] > [@](#): > > So, I stand by what I said before “It’s not that simple”. But note that none of these agencies are suggesting masks are useless or “like holding a newspaper in a hurricane”. Things are rarely simple and I don’t think anyone’s suggested masks are “useless”; just ineffective. Just like a newspaper cover in a monsoon is. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/30 "2020-03-18T23:42:45Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > Since face masks are so badly needed by health care professionals, but in such short supply, I go to wondering whether it’s possible to make such masks. […] > > There are instructions online on how to make masks, but an ineffective mask may be no better than no mask at all (and might I guess be worse). Can an effective mask be homemade? This doesn’t address the issue of the efficacy of reusable masks, but there are two stories on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) about hospitals making their own home-brew masks. [This tale that mentions, uhh marine vinyl?](https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/18/us/coronavirus-protective-equipment-trnd/index.html) Hospital staff in Renton, Washington, are making DIY face shields for medical workers to help deal with the shortage. Providence St. Joseph Health system operates 51 hospitals and hundreds of clinics across seven states. About 20 administrative staff members made 500 face shields from marine-grade vinyl, industrial tape, foam and elastic, Jennifer Bayersdorfer, the hospital group’s senior vice president for clinical quality, told CNN. Bayersdorfer said staff members bought the supplies at craft stores and Home Depot and assembled the shields in a conference room. They are working on making kits that their volunteers can assemble at home, and they plan to start making masks as well. And then there’s [this video](https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/03/18/georgia-hospital-sewing-masks-together-vpx.cnn) that cones with a short summary. Surgical sheeting. A Georgia hospital has begun making makeshift masks from surgical sheeting as they risk running out of supplies due to increased worldwide demand for medical equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/31 "2020-03-18T23:47:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I was thinking more about dipping a cloth in soapy water and letting it dry so that the soap molecules are stuck to the fibers. So then when the virus passes through the fabric, the soapy fibers are better able to attract and hold the virus rather than just plain fibers. Once the mask gets wet, it needs to be replaced. Masks cannot be dried, sterilized and reused. I mean I guess they can, but that’s not how they are supposed to be used because moisture damages the fibres. Imagine trying to reuse a wet tissue or paper towel. Besides, soap molecules don’t work when they’re dry; they need water. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2020, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/32 "2020-03-19T09:02:22Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “rhetorical thing” but I’m using burkas as an example. They’re just as practical as face masks for what you’re trying to achieve, if not more so. Not as practical _overall_ is what’s obviously meant here. Wearing a suit of armor might also be practical if we’re purely talking about blocking particles, but no, obviously what is meant here is overall practicality. I can’t wear a suit of armor to work, I can’t wear a burka to work. > [@](#): > > And equating wearing a burka to “blacking up” is offensive to the work civil rights movement has done so I suggest you tone down the rhetoric. Oh, you’re a card. > [@](#): > > It’s interesting you chose to ignore the studies I cited debunking the effectiveness of mask and continue to cling to your one and only reference like it’s your life preserver to help you from sinking. Actually it’s a draw in terms of studies linked so far. One of your two links was just a news article. > [@](#): > > From your WHO link: > From your ECDC link: > It only talks about how to wear a mask for a narrow field of people. None of you links even hint at their effectiveness. No, these links say exactly what I said in summarizing them, which is that they recommend masks to be worn by some healthy people, just not the wider public. Implicitly this suggests that masks, properly worn, have non-negligible protective benefit. Also this is an interesting way to phrase the sentence “I was wrong to say no health agencies advocate the use of masks to protect the wearer”. Want to have another run at it? > [@](#): > > Asian countries wear masks as a matter of social habit borne from several factors including history, religion and mores like etiquette. None of your links talk about masks being effective. If they were, why aren’t Western governments following suit? Well here we have something to discuss at last. The way Asian health organizations see it, it is indeed this cultural difference that is responsible for the discrepancy, but not in the way you suggest. You see, here in Asia masks are already owned by a large proportion of the population. So, even if masks only provide a small protective benefit, it’s a no-brainer for health agencies to recommend their use for everyone. Meanwhile in the US, there is no such culture, indeed covering the face can be seen as rude. So masks are in short supply, and therefore the situation is not so simple; even if masks help a little it’s probably not a good thing to tell a billion people across Europe and North America to go hoard masks. Of course it’s all just speculation, but again, bear in mind that no Western health agency is saying _don’t wear masks_, period. They are all saying healthcare providers should wear masks, and all but the CDC is saying people caring for sick family members should wear them. So clearly they have some significant benefit. > [@](#): > > I repeat, there is no scientist or health organization that advocates the use of masks to prevent the wearer from infection and your cites haven’t proved otherwise. What? They all just advocated exactly that. Some even mandating their use. Your attempts at handwaves are insufficient to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/33 "2020-03-19T23:42:26Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Not as practical _overall_ is what’s obviously meant here. Wearing a suit of armor might also be practical if we’re purely talking about blocking particles, but no, obviously what is meant here is overall practicality. I can’t wear a suit of armor to work, I can’t wear a burka to work. You don’t understand what practical means. Capability is not the same as practicality. > [@](#): > > I can’t wear a suit of armor to work, I can’t wear a burka to work. Do muslim women know that? > [@](#): > > Oh, you’re a card. This is not the right response when told to stop racial rhetoric. > [@](#): > > Actually it’s a draw in terms of studies linked so far. One of your two links was just a news article. You obviously didn’t read them properly. They both refer to a study/trial. If you spend five minutes on Google, you’ll find more. Moreover, you understand burden of proof, right? Experiments don’t start off to find negative evidence. There have been several that tried to show the efficacy of masks but results have been mixed and inconclusive. Unless you get steady results, there is no evidence. If there were, I’m sure you would have provided them by now instead of clinging to your untenable position. > [@](#): > > No, these links say exactly what I said in summarizing them, which is that they recommend masks to be worn by some healthy people, just not the wider public. Implicitly this suggests that masks, properly worn, have non-negligible protective benefit. You have the wrong argument. We’ve agreed masks/burkas can act as a barrier to saliva droplets. What other non-negligible protective benefit does your cite refer to? Why are they recommending mask use for some healthy people and not the wider public? If we’re not health care workers or caring for an infected individual, which category do most of us fall under? > [@](#): > > You see, here in Asia masks are already owned by a large proportion of the population. So, even if masks only provide a small protective benefit, it’s a no-brainer for health agencies to recommend their use for everyone. Your arguments are incoherent. People already own masks in Asia so their use is being recommended by the government? This on its own doesn’t make sense but it still doesn’t show how masks provide “protective benefit”. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile in the US, there is no such culture, indeed covering the face can be seen as rude. Again with the ridiculous statements. When did covering the face become rude in the USA? Do muslim women know this? I’d like to see a cite for your claim. > [@](#): > > Of course it’s all just speculation, but again, bear in mind that no Western health agency is saying _don’t wear masks_, period. So now you’re just speculating? Governments aren’t saying “don’t wear burkas” either. It doesn’t mean they’re advocating their use. > [@](#): > > They are all saying healthcare providers should wear masks, and all but the CDC is saying people caring for sick family members should wear them. So clearly they have some significant benefit. You should think about why they recommend masks for some people but not others. > [@](#): > > What? They all just advocated exactly that. Some even mandating their use. Your attempts at handwaves are insufficient to change that. They’re advocating wearing face masks but it still hasn’t addressed the issue to their efficacy of preventing viral transmission. This is just a roundabout way to say “I can’t find any scientist or health organization that advocates masks as a way of preventing infection”. You wanna try again? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465/34 "2020-03-21T04:51:00Z")
I will be replying to **Saturn Dreams** by PM, since these line by line back-and-forths spoil threads. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effective-homemade-surgical-face-masks-possible/849465.md?page=1)