# Effectiveness of Greed, Advertsing and Lies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688 "2012-10-24T02:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/1 "2012-10-24T02:33:19Z")
Here’s an interesting one. Many folks would like a new bridge that can take transport trucks between Detroit and Windsor. There is a good bridge there now - the Ambassador Bridge carries 25% of Canada - US trade. That’s a lot of trucks. The Ambassador Bridge is 83 years old. That’s fairly old for a bridge, so a new, additional bridge would be good. It would be especially good for Canada that relies heavily on trading back and forth with the US. So good, that Canada has agreed to pay for the bridge. In full. Including any cost overruns. Including any liabilities. Sounds like a great deal, eh? Pretty much everyone thinks so, even the Canadian taxpayer who will foot the bill. Not so fast! There is one group - well, one person who is against this whole idea. Who you might ask? [Manuel (Matty) Moroun,](http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/23/greedy-u-s-billionaire-urges-michigan-voters-to-reject-free-bridge-to-canada/)an 85-year-old businessman. You see, he **owns** the Ambassador Bridge. Makes about 80 million dollars a year off the bridge. Is a billionaire. He does not want the competition. Might make less money. So what does he do? Pushes to have ballot initiative Proposal 6 put on the ballot. > [@](#): > > Proposal 6 is a statewide ballot initiative that, if successful, would see Michigan’s state constitution amended and make any new “international bridges” subject to the approval of a majority of Michigan voters. He really, really does not want a competitor: > [@](#): > > (He’s) reportedly spent over $10-million to thwart the free bridge, an effort highlighted by door-to-door flier campaigns, robocalls and their ubiquitous television spots: > > “There is no such thing as a free bridge,” one woman says. > > “Eventually, we the people are going to end up paying for it,” warns a Vietnam veteran with an American flag on the back of his motorcycle. > > “Quit being so arrogant with our money,” a weathered-senior in a yellow golf shirt growls. “We can’t go out and start building bridges, our grandkids are going to have to pay the debt off.” Lies. Plain and simply, this greedy old billionaire is lying to the public so that he will not have a competitor to his monopoly. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/2 "2012-10-24T03:46:57Z")
Yea, that kind of shit pisses me off too. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/3 "2012-10-24T03:59:57Z")
Holy shit. What moneyed interests are in favour of the bridge? Is there any substantial campaign for it? Are any newspapers or other ostensibly independent outlets supporting the criticisms? It’s mind-boggling. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/4 "2012-10-24T04:06:39Z")
Another great capitalist resorts to communism. It’s very difficult to find a successful business that doesn’t owe it’s continued existence to government regulation. Yeah, he built that. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/5 "2012-10-24T07:31:31Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Sounds like a great deal, eh? What’s this all aboot? No seriously, the guy’s a dick. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/6 "2012-10-24T12:48:46Z")
Someone should have a quiet word in his ear and remind him how prone to accidents 85 yr olds are. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/7 "2012-10-24T14:04:39Z")
I’m thinking the old man should be offered a prominent role in the new bridge. Like maybe in the concrete of the center span. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/8 "2012-10-24T14:30:55Z")
[Article:](http://www.michigandaily.com/article/10billionaire-seeks-maintain-monopoly-proposal-624) > [@](#): > > Republican Gov. Rick Snyder, the Detroit Regional Chamber and the Michigan Chamber of Commerce support the building of the second bridge and oppose the proposal. > > “While the proposal is intended to protect one company’s monopoly on truck crossings between Detroit and Canada, it was sloppily written and jeopardizes any bridge construction today that won’t be completed by January 1, or any bridge built thereafter,” Snyder said in a statement. > . > . > . > State Rep. Jeff Irwin (D-Ann Arbor) said The People Should Decide committee, which is behind the proposal, has been campaigning for the proposal. > > “There’s a very heavy ad campaign behind (Proposal 6), and the message of that ad campaign is somewhat compelling,” Irwin said. “People generally have that initial reaction of having a vote by the people on these kinds of things, what could be wrong with that?” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/9 "2012-10-24T14:39:59Z")
Do you have a point of your own to make? I t looks like pretty much everyone opposes the old man’s proposal - both sides of the political spectrum, local, state, federal, as well as the chamber of commerce and business. He’s getting “the people” to buy into his proposal by lying to them in his paid advertisements. That’s what could be “wrong with that” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/10 "2012-10-24T14:47:54Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Do you have a point of your own to make? I > > t looks like pretty much everyone opposes the old man’s proposal - both sides of the political spectrum, local, state, federal, as well as the chamber of commerce and business. > > He’s getting “the people” to buy into his proposal by lying to them in his paid advertisements. That’s what could be “wrong with that” Absolutely. I guess my only thought would be: let’s see if it works. I think that people’s common sense ought to trump the issue here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/11 "2012-10-24T14:58:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely. I guess my only thought would be: let’s see if it works. I think that people’s common sense ought to trump the issue here. I quit believing in “People’s Common Sense” the day Pet Rocks made the cover of Time Magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/12 "2012-10-24T14:59:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely. I guess my only thought would be: let’s see if it works. I think that people’s common sense ought to trump the issue here. Yes, that would be great, if true. But the quotes in the article from people are worrisome, in that they show that they believe the lies that they have been fed by this old rich monopoly-benefiting bastard. So if they relied on their common sense, they would see that a new bridge would be built, at no cost to anyone in the state, paid for entirely by another country. They would see that the bridge would benefit hundreds of businesses, and is supported by business and all politicians. But they are NOT relying on their common sense. That’s rather the point of this thread. They are being swayed by millions of dollars of advertising, ads that are featuring lies in support of a single monopolistic individual who is paying for the ads. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/13 "2012-10-24T15:21:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Do you have a point of your own to make? I > > t looks like pretty much everyone opposes the old man’s proposal - both sides of the political spectrum, local, state, federal, as well as the chamber of commerce and business. > > He’s getting “the people” to buy into his proposal by lying to them in his paid advertisements. That’s what could be “wrong with that” It appears as if he’s trying to illustrate the fact that the Republican governor is being sensible here, while the Democratic Rep is either complicit in the scheme or at the very least easily manipulated by the ad campaign. In other words, part 463 of Bricker’s ongoing gotcha campaign to show us how partisan we all are. I don’t know, I’m perfectly happy siding with Snyder here. Irwin’s being a tool. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/14 "2012-10-24T15:39:05Z")
> [@](#): > > In other words, part 463 of Bricker’s ongoing gotcha campaign to show us how partisan we all are. Clearly not that, since the OP and all subsequent posts are showing outrage over this. If anything, it seems to be there to show how venal and reprehensible a Democrat can be, despuite the EP later saying that “It looks like pretty much everyone opposes the old man’s proposal - both sides of the political spectrum, local, state, federal, as well as the chamber of commerce and business.” Venal Deocrats? Horror! But I live in Massachusetts. I’ll readily agree there are Democrats Behaving Badly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/15 "2012-10-24T16:39:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It appears as if he’s trying to illustrate the fact that the Republican governor is being sensible here, while the Democratic Rep is either complicit in the scheme or at the very least easily manipulated by the ad campaign. I don’t think **Bricker** is attempting to blame Democrats. Irwin is describing what’s going on, not supporting it. The People Should Decide is supported ([according to them](http://thepeopleshoulddecide.com/about/)) by a bizarre array of national right-wing groups (Americans for Tax Reform, Americans for Prosperity) and local groups which I assume are left-wing (Detroit Association of Black Organizations, Mexican Patriotic Committee of Detroit). If anyone is to blame, it’s arguably Snyder’s party mates; the bridge would already be under construction except that Republicans on the Economic Development Committee [blocked it](http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/10/detroit-windsor_bridge_fails_t.html) (the Democrats didn’t help matters by abstaining). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/16 "2012-10-24T17:45:53Z")
Once again demonstrating that democracy just doesn’t work. Or at least the initiative process, as currently implemented in many states (including my own home state of California) is deeply, deeply flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/17 "2012-10-24T18:04:04Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Once again demonstrating that democracy just doesn’t work. The initiative hasn’t passed yet (and [probably won’t](http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Michigan_International_Bridge_Initiative,_Proposal_6_(2012)#Polls)). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/18 "2012-10-24T18:04:16Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Once again demonstrating that democracy just doesn’t work. > > Or at least the initiative process, as currently implemented in many states (including my own home state of California) is deeply, deeply flawed. It seems to be subject to hijacking by special interest groups (or in this case, a single individual with deep pockets who wants to block competition) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/19 "2012-10-24T18:10:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Yes, that would be great, if true. But the quotes in the article from people are worrisome, in that they show that they believe the lies that they have been fed by this old rich monopoly-benefiting bastard. Is it standard practice for this source not give a name for the person quoted? > [@](#): > > \ one woman says. > > \ warns a Vietnam veteran with an American flag on the back of his motorcycle. > > \ a weathered-senior in a yellow golf shirt growls. These quotes sound like bullshit to me. As in I suspect they phony. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688/20 "2012-10-24T18:22:08Z")
My take on the ‘what did he mean’: if it doesn’t pass, then all complaints about campaign financing or _Citizen’s United_ are automatically invalid–this proves that money has no impact or effect on elections and should not be regulated in any way. Actually, even if it doesn’t pass yet there are a non-trivial number of votes for it, and controlling for the few votes of self-interest (I expect he will vote for it, as would businesses right at the end of his bridge), strongly suggests that unlimited campaign spending _is_ detrimental to democracy. Whether or not this would have been covered under existing or struck-down law, or whether this particular context could ever be avoided is irrelevant–a statistically significant swaying of a vote based on intentionally erroneous, misleading facts underscores the need to break the money=speech equivalence and implement/enforce strong campaign finance reform. ETA: > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > These quotes sound like bullshit to me. As in I suspect they phony. Those quotes are part of the ad. Further, from the article: > [@](#): > > Dan Daniel, the Vietnam vet featured in at least two of the television commercials, is a retired Troy police officer. I phoned the station house in Troy, looking for a forwarding contact for Mr. Daniel. The officer who answered was a friend of “Danny’s”. He assured me he would pass along my message and chuckled when I mentioned the free bridge. > > “You mean the bridge to nowhere?” he said. “If you believe that it’s free I’ve got some swampland down in Florida I can sell you.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/effectiveness-of-greed-advertsing-and-lies/638688.md?page=2)