# eg., ie., and ff **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 8, 2001, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655 "2001-02-08T17:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/1 "2001-02-08T17:35:56Z")
1. I know that ie. means id est in Latin, which in English means it is and goes for that is, but what does ff mean in Latin? (I know it is used when you mean to indicate that the reader should read on a few more pages past the one given until the subject or the reader is exausted). 2) Why is the announcement that there is about to be an example eg.? Why not ex? Is this also from Latin, possibly exemplum? But no g there either! 3) Why is the abbreviation for pages pp instead of leaving it at p or using ps or even pg? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/2 "2001-02-08T17:54:08Z")
e.g. is short for Latin: exempli gratia- for instance pp means pages, I suppose ff is in some way related- doubling letters means multiples, e.g. p.s, p.p.s. etc. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/3 "2001-02-08T17:54:10Z")
From my Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition… 1. ff means ‘folios and the following ones’ 2. e.g. stands for _exemplia gratia_ (for example). 3. pp means more than one page. If I’m talking about something on page 3, I’ll abbreviate it p.3. But if it’s pages 3 through 9, I’ll say pp 3-9. pp itself stands for _per procurationem_. Hope that helps… ---
**Author:** ![Spritle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Spritle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spritle)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/4 "2001-02-08T18:27:05Z")
for yuks (and fighting ignorance and all)… Containing repeated information from above, so as to make one easily printed document. 🙂 _etc. - Et Cetera_, and so on, and other things. _i.e. - Id Est_, That is. (Often used before clarification on a point.) _q.v. - Quod Vide_, which see. (Used after a subject to which the reader is additionally referred.) _et al. - Et Allii, Et Alia_, and other people, and other things. _c.f. - Confer_, compare. (Used to draw the reader’s attention to a point of comparison.) _viz. - Videlicet_, namely, that is to say. (Used to elaborate.) _N.B. - Nota Bene_, note well, carefully. _e.g. - Exempli Gratia_, for example, for instance. (literally, “free example”.) _c. - Circa_, about, approximately. _pp - per procurationem_, multiple pages _ff_ - folios and the following ones Where did I get these? I don’t recall. I probably saw them in another post in a different thread and printed them out for my paper writing needs. If some poster recognizes this list as something the posted, you can claim it. Of course, if nobody claims it in 30 days, it’s mine. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/5 "2001-02-08T19:04:21Z")
**op. cit.** - _opere citato_ - the work cited (Used to refer to the work by giving only the author’s name–it is that author’s specific work that has already been cited) **ibid.** - _ibidem_ - in the same place (Used quoting multiple, separated lines from the same work/passage to avoid repeating the citation on each occurrence) **passim** - _passim_ - scattered or throughout (Used to indicate that the _idea_ occurs in multiple places in a work and _this_ author is not going to provide citations for every occurrence) Also as _sic passim_ - sic = thus or so, meaning the idea is presented “thus throughout” the work. ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/6 "2001-02-08T19:54:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spritle \* > **_N.B. - Nota Bene_, note well, carefully.** I have an outstanding mystery, and perhaps someone here can help me. In my 1922 copy of _Radio Telephony for Amateurs_, the original owner liberally marked up the sections which he thought were most important. Most often he used the N.B. notation, but in a few cases he used F.B., which I’ve never been able to track down. (Example: in one case he marked a whole paragraph as F.B., and one of the paragraph’s sentences as N.B.) Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/7 "2001-02-08T19:55:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spritle \* > _c.f. - Confer_, compare. (Used to draw the reader’s attention to a point of comparison.) [nitpick] It should be _cf_ with no periods. [/nitpick] > [@](#): > > _N.B. - Nota Bene_, note well, carefully. Now my question. Why is N.B. the only Latin abbreviation that’s usually capitalized? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/8 "2001-02-08T20:20:14Z")
Another question: why do they bother abbreviating ibidem to ibid? It only saves 1 character. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/9 "2001-02-08T23:30:12Z")
ibid ibidem (I count a two character difference(and in a proportional font, the “m” gets a 1 1/2 character width). Other than that: you’re looking for _logic_ in the development of either language or printing? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/10 "2001-02-08T23:56:51Z")
Who could forget QED? Jeez. As well… _ibid._ _ibidem_ One character difference. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/11 "2001-02-09T00:05:07Z")
I’ll throw in another one: sic - means “thus”, as in “it appeared thus in the source text.” e.g. when you are quoting something with a spelling error you could follow the misspelled word with “(sic)”. “Dan Quayle complimented the young man on his spelling of the word potatoe (_sic_).” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/12 "2001-02-09T00:13:33Z")
OK. **Smack** left off the period and I didn’t notice it. OTOH, even with the period, you save at least two print quads when abbreviating it. ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/13 "2001-02-09T01:45:45Z")
“Another question: why do they bother abbreviating ibidem to ibid? It only saves 1 character.” It was the bright idea of some guy named Thos. somethingorother. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/14 "2001-02-09T01:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Where did I get these? I don’t recall. [Cough](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=54565). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/15 "2001-02-09T02:08:01Z")
I’ve seen circa abbreviated ca. And I’ve seen NB without any periods. Ibidem is usually abbreviared “id.” in footnotes. Have no idea about FB. ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/16 "2001-02-13T13:55:11Z")
When you use SIC, you have to enclose it in square brackets , not in parentheses (), because the square brackets indicate an interpolation in the text that you have made. “Dan Quayle spelled ‘potato’ ‘potatoe,’ [sic].” However, I don’t know whether ‘sic’ should have a period after it, and if it does, do you put the period outside the square bracket because of the quotation marks? ---
**Author:** ![Alki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/cab0a1/32.png) [@Alki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alki)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/17 "2001-02-13T14:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know whether ‘sic’ should have a period after it “Sic” doesn’t require a period because it’s not an abbreviation. It’s straight Latin for “thus,” as in “thus it was said/written.” ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/18 "2001-02-13T14:05:35Z")
Re. **sic** , no, I don’t think (and my dictionary agrees here) that it should have a period after it, because, unlike some of the words previously mentioned, it is not an abbreviation. It simply means “so” or “thus”, indicating that the spelling error or whatever was made by the originator of the text quoted, rather than by the person quoting it. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/19 "2001-02-13T17:41:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Holden MacRoyne_ > _pp - per procurationem_, multiple pages I think you’re confusing two things: “p.p.” (or sometimes “per pro.”) stands for _per procurationem_, meaning “by an agent or proxy”; in other words, that the author did not sign the letter himself. “pp.” stands for “pages”, “p.” standing for page. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by don willard_ > When you use SIC, you have to enclose it in square brackets , not in parentheses (), because the square brackets indicate an interpolation in the text that you have made. That depends entirely on whether it is used of diredct or indirect speech. In the latter case, it would be ordinary brackets. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655/20 "2001-02-13T19:23:31Z")
Tom, by indirect speech do you mean that you are not quoting someone? If that be the case, why not just correct the error and dispense with “sic” altogether? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eg-ie-and-ff/53655.md?page=2)