# Egypt: Now what? Civil war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550 "2013-07-03T15:17:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/21 "2013-07-03T18:51:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And it probably won’t change until there is more than one organized political force. There is, there is, it is only that the MB is the **best** organized. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/22 "2013-07-03T18:53:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is, there is, it is only that the MB is the **best** organized. They need to be organized well enough to compete with the MB. Even after all the stuff Morsi did to piss people off, I’m not sure what would happen if you had another round of elections today. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/23 "2013-07-03T19:44:05Z")
Assad tells Morsi to mind the peoples demands and step down. He’s here all week folks. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/24 "2013-07-03T19:57:50Z")
What is the likelihood of a violent MB/Islamist reaction to the coup? Civil war via terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/25 "2013-07-03T20:42:25Z")
Wow. Truly marvellous and splendid developments in Egypt to-day. Eighty years after Adolf Hitler took power in Germany, the Egyptian army did what the Reichswehr should have done then and removed Mohammed Morsi from power. I don’t see much of a threat from the MB or other Islamists personally-the entire Egyptian army and security apparatus are arrayed against them while it is evident that they are doing little to provoke the Islamists with violence by for instance having Morsi shot like Allende was. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/26 "2013-07-03T20:48:05Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Eighty years after Adolf Hitler took power in Germany, the Egyptian army did what the Reichswehr should have done then and removed Mohammed Morsi from power. Am I missing some kind of joke here? There weren’t massive, violent public uprisings again the Nazis. Nor were there reports of significant civil unrest, lack of law enforcement, or other signs of breakdown in civil order in Germany. By this reasoning, any military that disagrees with its corresponding civil leadership has an imperative to remove it from power whenever it feels like it. Since when is it a good thing when the military takes the law into its own hands? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/27 "2013-07-03T21:02:52Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Am I missing some kind of joke here? > > There weren’t massive, violent public uprisings again the Nazis. Nor were there reports of significant civil unrest, lack of law enforcement, or other signs of breakdown in civil order in Germany. There actually was talk of the Reichswehr doing exactly that when Hitler was inaugurated. > [@](#): > > By this reasoning, any military that disagrees with its corresponding civil leadership has an imperative to remove it from power whenever it feels like it. Since when is it a good thing when the military takes the law into its own hands? A military coup is justified when it is necessary to do so to preserve good government and prevent totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/28 "2013-07-03T21:06:08Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > A military coup is justified when it is necessary to do so to preserve good government and prevent totalitarianism. Dude, this irony is awesome. Hit me one more time! ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/29 "2013-07-03T21:10:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > A military coup is justified when it is necessary to do so to preserve good government and prevent totalitarianism. The thread is on Egypt, so I won’t hijack this thread any more. Just wanted to make sure it was actually a serious post, because your Godwinizing of the thread makes for some extreme unintentional irony. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/30 "2013-07-03T21:37:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > A military coup is justified when it is necessary to do so to preserve good government and prevent totalitarianism. :dubious: Just as a thought exercise, I suggest you might take a minute or two and think about this sentence. ---
**Author:** ![aaelghat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c5a1d2/32.png) [@aaelghat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaelghat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/31 "2013-07-03T21:41:44Z")
I’ve had mixed feelings about this… on the one hand, in a democracy you should let due process determine the outcome, on the other hand, Morsi was in essence another dictator, ignored laws, and tried to blend the judicial and executive branches and remove checks and balances. There were more signatures on petitions from the Egyptian citizens to oust him than votes he got in the election in the first place. Democracy doesn’t work when the president is acting unlawfully. The Army did this because Morsy was illegally centralizing power, and wasn’t listening to the populace. Many of the people initially in favor of Morsy, that voted for him, recognized he was another Mubarek. The big mistake that Egypt made from a process standpoint was that the constitution was written AFTER they elected a president, so it was very skewed towards MB goals and Morsy ignored other efforts to make it reflective of the country. Now that the constitution has been nullified, and a new one will be written prior to electing a president, it will hopefully be more politically neutral. I think overall this is extremely positive, and hopefully Egypt learned from Revolution 1.0 and will build a good constitutional foundation. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/32 "2013-07-03T22:19:41Z")
The army just shut down Al Jazeera’s Egyptian station; so much for opposing voices or freedom of the press. Getting ugly – interested to hear what Obama has to say about this. ---
**Author:** ![aaelghat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c5a1d2/32.png) [@aaelghat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaelghat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/33 "2013-07-03T22:56:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The army just shut down Al Jazeera’s Egyptian station; so much for opposing voices or freedom of the press. Where is that being reported? I’ve been watching Al Jazeera live, and haven’t heard anything of the sort… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/34 "2013-07-03T23:00:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Dude, this irony is awesome. Hit me one more time! I’m no fan of the concept, but it worked for Turkey, with the military stepping in and out for many years. But Egypt doesn’t have the kind of ideology that was popular in Turkey, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/35 "2013-07-03T23:48:16Z")
> [@aaelghat](#): > > Where is that being reported? I’ve been watching Al Jazeera live, and haven’t heard anything of the sort… See: [Egypt army takes Al Jazeera off air](http://www.3news.co.nz/Egypt-army-takes-Al-Jazeera-off-air/tabid/417/articleID/303733/Default.aspx) As to why Al Jazeera isn’t reporting it, maybe their first priority is staff safety in a confusing situation. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/36 "2013-07-04T00:07:41Z")
Al Jazeera is now reporting that their Egypt service has been put off the air. > [@RedFury](#): > > The army just shut down Al Jazeera’s Egyptian station; so much for opposing voices or freedom of the press. There is nothing democratic about what happened today in Egypt. I certainly did not like Morsi. But the horrendous economic situation is only slightly his fault. The democratic way would have been to let Morsi serve out his term and then elect someone else. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/37 "2013-07-04T00:31:51Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The democratic way would have been to let Morsi serve out his term and then elect someone else. The problem, the reasoning as I am hearing it as to why it wasn’t being done this way is he simply was eliminating all opposition by laws and the removal of laws, by stacking courts in MB favor, lawmakers in MB favor and news sources in MB favor. So democracy got him in and he was making sure it was going to keep them in power. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/38 "2013-07-04T01:33:31Z")
I had modest hopes for Morsi, but he decided he was not a democratic leader. He forfeited his legitimacy - and the ultimate arbiter of that in Egypt is the military. It is my understanding that they still control the main chunk of the economy. So while Morsi may have increased his control of the government, the military still controls the country. I give the military credit for at least allowing Morsi and the MB to try and form a legitimate government - far more than Algeria did twenty years ago when Islamists won that election. I think that the military also did not want a repeat of the Algerian civil war either. I don’t think the majority of Egyptians favor one either, but the MB could turn into a nasty insurgency if events do not unfold well - and I have no definition of what ‘well’ means at the moment. I think as long as the MB is allowed to remain a legal political party, they may be satisfied, but the military will not allow them to form a majority government any time soon. I think the analysis above - Egypt torn between illiberal democrats and non-democratic liberals - is correct, but I think this whole episode is mostly birthing pains. We took a good eight years to form our final government after winning our independence. And we came from at least a modest tradition of self-government (for certain classes of people.) I would give Egypt a couple more transitional governments before true democratic rule is embedded. I hope violence continues to be minimal, and that the military continues to wear its velvet glove, but it is too early to tell what side will prevail. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/39 "2013-07-04T02:07:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Army gave Morsi 48 hours to resolve the crisis, and now that deadline has passed.](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/20137394753443155.html) But what they’re gonna do about it, they ain’t sayin’. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > BBC TV is reporting a coup is now under way in Egypt, with tanks on the street. And now we know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550/40 "2013-07-04T02:09:52Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > See: > > [Egypt army takes Al Jazeera off air](http://www.3news.co.nz/Egypt-army-takes-Al-Jazeera-off-air/tabid/417/articleID/303733/Default.aspx). > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Al Jazeera is now reporting that their Egypt service has been put off the air. [And yet some media remain beyond their power . . .](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/20137319828176718.html) > [@](#): > > Morsi’s presidential Facebook page quoted the deposed president as saying he rejected the army statement as a military coup. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egypt-now-what-civil-war/662550.md?page=3)