# EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo missing over Med {This was in 2016} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 19, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145 "2016-05-19T04:26:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/41 "2016-05-20T23:24:00Z")
I guess that’s one of the downsides to being a popular maker. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/42 "2016-05-20T23:53:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I guess that’s one of the downsides to being a popular maker. There are really only two. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/43 "2016-05-21T00:29:12Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > The majority of pilots that are right handed, tend to break right when warned, and then the flight resumes its original track or close to it, coming back to 0/360. I believe that if you are approaching another plane head on, you are both to turn to the right to be sure you don’t turn into each other. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/44 "2016-05-21T01:17:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > There are really only two. Yes. And Airbus is probably most common in Europe, where they are based, so planes crashing in/over/near Europe are more likely to be Airbus than Boeing. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/45 "2016-05-21T01:27:55Z")
Emergency descent guidelines are described [here](http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Emergency_Descent:_Guidance_for_Controllers#Useful_to_Know). Regarding the initial 90 degree left turn: > [@](#): > > Initiate a turn away from the assigned route or track before commencing the emergency descent (ICAO Doc 7030, para 9.1.1.1). There is no prescription in respect of the direction in which such a turn should be made and not all States follow this part of the ICAO model anyway. Some military training advises that when beginning a un-communicated descent, it should be made to the left to allow the aircraft commander the best line of sight but this is less common in civil air transport operations. None of the other actions on the checklist (such as notifying air traffic control or setting the transponder to Emergency Mode) appear to have been carried out, so presumably things developed quickly on board. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/46 "2016-05-21T02:12:27Z")
> [@Mellivora\_capensis](#): > > There’s also the possibility of suicide. It’s been proven that [suicide by an EgyptAir pilot is a physical impossibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990). They did tests and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/47 "2016-05-21T10:13:44Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Yes I realize that, but with the Italian flight in the 80’s, it was not directly targeted but was the next available target for that matra missile. So if a dog fight did occur in the present time, and the same thing happened, one of the military pilots giving a heads up on guard channel to break , ya got a snake heading your way. It supposedly turned left. Anyway, if I was flying along and I heard someone say “break! missile on the way!”, I wouldn’t break or turn or anything, I’d just keep on cruising along. The chances of it being a serious call directed at my aeroplane are so far out weighed by the chances of some smart arse playing games that it wouldn’t be worth even thinking about. > [@Walken After Midnight](#): > > ``` > The 90 degree turn is interesting as it's not a typical manoeuvre for a commercial airliner to make. One suggested explanation is a struggle in the cockpit. However, I've also read that it's a standard emergency descent manoeuvre, when faced with an incident such as depressurization. If it was a true 90 degree turn that might suggest more towards it being a controlled action (and so the latter explanation). > > ``` Any turn off the cleared route is not typical. The typical behaviour of an airliner is to stay on the route from take-off to landing. That may involve 90º turns, 10º turns, or even turns in excess of 180º depending on the approach procedure. So it is not that the turn was 90º that makes it atypical, it was that any turn occurred at all. A rapid descent is a possibility though as you noted the turn is a guideline and not necessarily the best thing to do. In busy airspace turning off the route can just put you right through other routes. I’d be inclined to turn 90º then back again to parallel the route by 5 miles or so. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/48 "2016-05-21T16:12:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I guess that’s one of the downsides to being a popular maker. > [@madsircool](#): > > There are really only two. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes. And Airbus is probably most common in Europe, where they are based, so planes crashing in/over/near Europe are more likely to be Airbus than Boeing. My comment was meant to be gallows humour based upon my perception that Airbus aircraft have crashed more often than Boeing ones recently. Actually, they’re about even: ```auto **2015** March 24 Germanwings Flight 9525 Airbus A320 March 29 Air Canada Flight 624 Airbus A320 April 14 Asiana Airlines Flight 162 Airbus A320 April 25 Turkish Airlines Flight 1878 Airbus A320 September 5 Ceiba Intercontinental Airlines Flight 71 Boeing 737-800 September 8 British Airways Flight 2276 Boeing 777-200 October 29 Dynamic Airways Flight 405 Boeing 767-200 October 31 Metrojet Flight 9268 Airbus A321 November 22 Avia Traffic Company Flight 768 Boeing 737-3YO **2016** February 2 Daallo Airlines Flight 159 Airbus A321 March 19 Flydubai Flight 981 Boeing 737-800 March 29 EgyptAir Flight 181 Airbus A320 April 4 Batik Air Flight 7703 Boeing 737-800 May 19 EgyptAir Flight 804 Airbus A320 ``` I count eight Airbus crashes and six Boeing crashes from 2015 to the present. I think my impression that Airbus aircraft crash more often than Boeing ones is because the ones involving Airbus have been higher profile recently. Note that I included crashes from all causes in the list, not just something going wrong with the aircraft. [List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/49 "2016-05-21T19:11:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > My comment was meant to be gallows humour based upon my perception that Airbus aircraft have crashed more often than Boeing ones recently. OTOH the Boeing 777 still leads in the categories of vanishing into \*&^% thin air and coming down juuuuust thiiis short of the runway… ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/50 "2016-05-22T03:37:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > ::: snip ::: > > Anyway, if I was flying along and I heard someone say “break! missile on the way!”, I wouldn’t break or turn or anything, I’d just keep on cruising along. The chances of it being a serious call directed at my aeroplane are so far out weighed by the chances of some smart arse playing games that it wouldn’t be worth even thinking about. > :::: snip ::::: He he, yeah, but you are in the middle of the Australian outback and not 3 miles South of the DMZ in Korea flying parallel to it. Sharks are a not event for me as I will prolly never swim where they could be ever again. ( old ya know ) Some folks don’t know where you fly… Bawahahahaha Or was that an inside joke? Hummmmmmmmm :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/51 "2016-05-22T04:57:54Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > He he, yeah, but you are in the middle of the Australian outback and not 3 miles South of the DMZ in Korea flying parallel to it. > > Sharks are a not event for me as I will prolly never swim where they could be ever again. ( old ya know ) > > Some folks don’t know where you fly… Bawahahahaha > > Or was that an inside joke? Hummmmmmmmm :smack: No not a joke. 1. How do you know the radio warning is directed at you? (Imagine if all 100 airliners within range of the guard frequency did a break maneouvre ;)) 2. How do you know it is legitimate? 3. It has never happened before as far as I know. 4. An airline crew would have no idea what to do. 5. Even if they did, an airliner is not manoeuvrable enough for it to have any effect. 6. An Airbus fly-by-wire won’t even let you do anything unusual, but it will tell tales on you to management. So, why would you risk your job on a manoeuvre that is unlikely to be effective and is 99% likely to not be necessary? It is possible that the turn was in response to a “break left!” call from a friendly pilot in the midst of a dogfight in the airspace. It is also possible that the plane got hit by a meteor. There are much more probable scenarios that should be ruled out first though, such as mechanical fault, pilot failure, or terrorism. I’m not saying the idea of it being shot down is totally out there, just the idea of a commercial crew flying a missile evasion manoeuvre on the strength of a random call on the radio. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/52 "2016-05-22T13:50:35Z")
I seem to get on a lot of Airbus aircraft. Worst marketing in the world. I don’t need to be reminded that I’m on a bus in the air. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/53 "2016-05-22T13:54:36Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I seem to get on a lot of Airbus aircraft. Worst marketing in the world. I don’t need to be reminded that I’m on a bus in the air. In 1972 they saw what the future of air travel was and decided to not sugarcoat it… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/54 "2016-05-23T02:03:20Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > No not a joke. > > 1. How do you know the radio warning is directed at you? (Imagine if all 100 airliners within range of the guard frequency did a break maneouvre ;)) > 2. How do you know it is legitimate? > 3. It has never happened before as far as I know. > 4. An airline crew would have no idea what to do. > 5. Even if they did, an airliner is not manoeuvrable enough for it to have any effect. > 6. An Airbus fly-by-wire won’t even let you do anything unusual, but it will tell tales on you to management. > > So, why would you risk your job on a manoeuvre that is unlikely to be effective and is 99% likely to not be necessary? > > It is possible that the turn was in response to a “break left!” call from a friendly pilot in the midst of a dogfight in the airspace. It is also possible that the plane got hit by a meteor. There are much more probable scenarios that should be ruled out first though, such as mechanical fault, pilot failure, or terrorism. > > I’m not saying the idea of it being shot down is totally out there, just the idea of a commercial crew flying a missile evasion manoeuvre on the strength of a random call on the radio. We are talking at cross ways different and not listening to each other. IMO Flying fat and sassy in the big iron and out of the blue comes a random call, You are 100% correct but the powers that be sent you somewhere scary and gave you no instructions. So you are flying along sassy as can be and you see with your eyes 2 fighters actually dog fighting, ( yeah, I know but just go with me here ) They cam by so close you can see the USA markings and see bad guy markings on a bad guy type of fighter. All of a sudden you hear a good old Texas drawl say, "Brand name airliner in the general area of “XXXX” this is top cover and you would be wise to break left/right/up/down RIGHT NOW. You have no protocol to follow, never even thought of this so you will just ignore it as it can’t be happening to you? I don’t believe that. So there was an Egyptian Airliner in a kn own dangerous area and you say if he heard the equivalent he would just cruise on as it is to ludicrous to think is could be happening? I bet not. I bet they talk about it among themselves regardless of company bluster. I in no way think this happened in this case nor do I have any idea if this has ever happened. But I have had blind calls to the orange & white 310 in such & such area, you have bad smoke coming out of… ( by this time I am already doing & checking and planning and dam if they we not right and I got a warning before it could be noticed from where I was sitting. ) I disagree with your “I won’t even check, look or consider” anything that makes no sense to me until it becomes unfixable. IMO, if you are a pilot in an area that this could happen and you refuse to even think of a plan before hand… not good IMO. If I am making no sense to you, don’t worry, happens to me a lot so no big deal. Okay, onward, no owies, no fowl. Not even a chicken. 😃🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/55 "2016-05-23T07:13:29Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If I am making no sense to you, don’t worry, happens to me a lot so no big deal. No, that all makes sense, it doesn’t seem very likely is all. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/56 "2016-05-24T09:19:13Z")
Looks like we’re headed for another conflicting verdict outcome. > [@](#): > > Doha - The head of Egypt’s state-run provider of air navigation services says that EgyptAir flight 804 did not swerve or lose altitude before it disappeared off radar, challenging an earlier account by Greece’s defence minister. > **[EgyptAir plane 'did not swerve' before crash | News24](https://www.news24.com/News24/egyptair-plane-did-not-swerve-before-crash-20160523)** > > A top air navigation official says the Egyptair plane did not swerve or lose altitude before it disappeared as claimed by Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/57 "2016-05-24T13:02:59Z")
> [@Mellivora\_capensis](#): > > Looks like we’re headed for another conflicting verdict outcome. > > [http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/egyptair-plane-did-not-swerve-before-crash-20160523](http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/egyptair-plane-did-not-swerve-before-crash-20160523) I think it’s a consequence of trying to appease the public by getting any information out there as soon as possible. Inevitably a lot of it will be wrong or suffer from the Chinese whispers effect. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/58 "2022-04-28T22:05:59Z")
And six years later: > **[Cigarette smoke responsible for EgyptAir MS804 crash: Report](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/28/cigarette-smoke-responsible-for-egyptair-ms804-crash-report)** > > 66 people died in the 2016 crash, which Egyptian authorities initially blamed on terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145/59 "2022-04-29T00:00:21Z")
Cigarettes and oxygen masks: rarely a happy combination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-missing-over-med-this-was-in-2016/755145.md?page=2)