# Egyptian Archaeology and Biblical History **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662 "2014-07-21T13:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/21 "2014-07-25T16:16:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s get serious here. According to the Wiki on the Exodus(which quotes the Bible)In what reality would that not be recorded in Egyptian history? The one where Pharoah climbs out of the Red Sea dripping wet and shouts, **“NOBODY EVER MENTION ANY OF THIS BUSINESS AGAIN!”** :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/22 "2014-07-25T16:25:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The one where Pharoah climbs out of the Red Sea dripping wet and shouts, **“NOBODY EVER MENTION ANY OF THIS BUSINESS AGAIN!”** :mad: They totaled about 2 million, and the total population of Egypt was between 3 and 3.5 million. He certainly didn’t have an army that could threaten them in any way. In fact, they could have told _him_ to take a walk. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/23 "2014-07-25T18:30:35Z")
It is not the Red Sea that destroyed Egypt. When all those Hebrews left at one time, the Egyptian housing market collapsed - and we know what happens then. The government was following the advice of Egyptian scholar pAyn pRand at the time, they cut the budget, and got wiped right out. 🙂 for Tom. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/24 "2014-07-25T18:35:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It is not the Red Sea that destroyed Egypt. When all those Hebrews left at one time, the Egyptian housing market collapsed - and we know what happens then. > The government was following the advice of Egyptian scholar pAyn pRand at the time, they cut the budget, and got wiped right out. > > 🙂 for Tom. _Anubis Shrugged_, right? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/25 "2014-07-25T18:48:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Anubis Shrugged_, right? It was the first Pyramid Scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/26 "2014-07-25T18:52:26Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I watched a show on TV that showed the Israelites were never slaves in Egypt, they uncovered an entire area where people had houses and also found many writings on stone tablets and pieces of stone that spoke of high wages and daily work on the pyramids.even men came from other countries to work there. IIRC it was sort of considered part of their civic duty to work on the pyramids. I think they would work on them in the off season when not farming. It gave the people something to do when they would otherwise be idle and gave them some income and some civic pride. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/27 "2014-07-25T18:57:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > IIRC it was sort of considered part of their civic duty to work on the pyramids. I think they would work on them in the off season when not farming. It gave the people something to do when they would otherwise be idle and gave them some income and some civic pride. Were the pyramids even being built at that time? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/28 "2014-07-25T18:58:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were the pyramids even being built at that time? No. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/29 "2014-07-25T19:00:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > IIRC it was sort of considered part of their civic duty to work on the pyramids. I think they would work on them in the off season when not farming. It gave the people something to do when they would otherwise be idle and gave them some income and some civic pride. More or less exactly how cathedrals were built in Europe during the middle ages. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/30 "2014-07-25T22:49:46Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I watched a show on TV that showed the Israelites were never slaves in Egypt, they uncovered an entire area where people had houses and also found many writings on stone tablets and pieces of stone that spoke of high wages and daily work on the pyramids.even men came from other countries to work there. This is silly from the get-go. Exodus 1:11: > [@](#): > > So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh. [Pithom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pithom) and Rameses were actual cities in Egypt, dating to the time of the purported Exodus, that were used as storage centers for Egyptian grain. “Debunking” Exodus by showing that the builders of the pyramids were paid workers is rather like “proving” that the U.S. Civil War was unnecessary by showing the median income of black auto workers in 1970 Detroit. The bible makes no claim that the Hebrews were enslaved to build pyramids. The word “pyramid” does not even occur in the bible. Regardless whether some large or small group of people fled Egypt and later moved into Canaan (either conquering it or simply supplying an event to which later, unrelated, people looked when they created their national identity myths), or whether such myths were created from scratch, the approach apparently taken by the TV show is utterly bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/31 "2014-07-26T02:29:25Z")
Further, it’s generally believed that Ramses II (The Great) was the Pharaoh in Exodus, although he didn’t die from anything other than old age. I believe they did find some increiptions where he claimed to have led a great victory and destroyed the Israelite tribe. So there may haven be some obscured truth on either side there. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/32 "2014-07-26T03:23:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It is not the Red Sea that destroyed Egypt. When all those Hebrews left at one time, the Egyptian housing market collapsed - and we know what happens then. > The government was following the advice of Egyptian scholar pAyn pRand at the time, they cut the budget, and got wiped right out. > > 🙂 for Tom. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Anubis Shrugged_, right? > [@simster](#): > > It was the first Pyramid Scheme. :Groan!: ;)😃 I would think that instead of looking at Exodus it is Genesis the big issue. According to Usher, the flood took place in 2348 BC. Unfortunately that is in the middle of the fifth Egyptian Dynasty. Usher never had to explain how all the Egyptians died and then in less than a generation some descendant of Noah started the whole thing again. I do remember once looking around if other literalists bothered with that issue, some indeed acknowledge it, by telling us that those Egyptologists are wrong, or followers of the devil. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/33 "2014-07-26T03:46:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Where would the [Philistines](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=17567080) fit into that, I wonder? Were they expelled Hyksos who ended up in Canaan, or cousins of the Hyksos brought to Canaan by the same “Sea Peoples” migration that brought the Hyksos to Egypt, or what? > > I guess we’ll never know – nobody even knows what language the Philistines spoke. We only know (if we know even that) that they didn’t get along with the Hebrews. The Philistines were ethnically related to the Greeks. When the Mycenaean civilization collapsed at about the same time as the Exodus the population in Greece declined by as much as 75 percent. Many Greeks became pirates and raiders. The Egyptians called them “the people of the sea.” The Egyptians defeated many of them, and settled them in what is now Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/34 "2014-07-26T03:55:13Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Further, it’s generally believed that Ramses II (The Great) was the Pharaoh in Exodus, although he didn’t die from anything other than old age. I believe they did find some increiptions where he claimed to have led a great victory and destroyed the Israelite tribe. So there may haven be some obscured truth on either side there. You are thinking of the Merneptah Stele. Merneptah was a son of Ramses II, and his successor. The Merneptah Stele has the following passage: The princes are prostrate, saying, “Peace!” Not one is raising his head among the Nine Bows. Now that Tehenu (Libya) has come to ruin, Hatti is pacified; The Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe: Ashkelon has been overcome; Gezer has been captured; Yano’am is made non-existent. Israel is laid waste and his seed is not; Hurru is become a widow because of Egypt. > **[Merneptah Stele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele)** > > The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele or the Victory Stele of Merneptah, is an inscription by Merneptah, a pharaoh in ancient Egypt who reigned from 1213 to 1203 BCE. Discovered by Flinders Petrie at Thebes in 1896, it is now housed at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. > The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the ancient Libyans and their allies, but the last three of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions. It i... The Merneptah Stele is the first mention of Israel that has been discovered. “Moses” is an Egyptian name. It is the name a Hebrew child might have been given if he was raised by an Egyptian princess, as Exodus says Moses was. The Egyptians did not like to write about slaves and military reversals. If a group of Hebrew slaves escaped into the Sinai Peninsula under the leadership of Moses, and if an Egyptian army sent to bring them back perished, the Egyptians would have covered it up. ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/35 "2014-07-26T12:28:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :Groan!: ;)😃 > > I would think that instead of looking at Exodus it is Genesis the big issue. > > According to Usher, the flood took place in 2348 BC. > > Unfortunately that is in the middle of the fifth Egyptian Dynasty. > > Usher never had to explain how all the Egyptians died and then in less than a generation some descendant of Noah started the whole thing again. > > I do remember once looking around if other literalists bothered with that issue, some indeed acknowledge it, by telling us that those Egyptologists are wrong, or followers of the devil. :smack: The first eleven chapters of Genesis get us from the Garden of Eden to the Tower of Babel. These stories cannot be literally true. Genesis 11:26 introduces Abram, who comes to be called “Abraham.” At that point the Bible may be essentially historical, even though all the details cannot be independently verified. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/36 "2014-07-26T12:57:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is silly from the get-go. > > Exodus 1:11: [Pithom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pithom) and Rameses were actual cities in Egypt, dating to the time of the purported Exodus, that were used as storage centers for Egyptian grain. > > “Debunking” Exodus by showing that the builders of the pyramids were paid workers is rather like “proving” that the U.S. Civil War was unnecessary by showing the median income of black auto workers in 1970 Detroit. > > The bible makes no claim that the Hebrews were enslaved to build pyramids. The word “pyramid” does not even occur in the bible. Regardless whether some large or small group of people fled Egypt and later moved into Canaan (either conquering it or simply supplying an event to which later, unrelated, people looked when they created their national identity myths), or whether such myths were created from scratch, the approach apparently taken by the TV show is utterly bankrupt. I only know what I had seen on TV, Like many things even what the Bible claimed are not necessarily true. But Kent weeks has found the burial places of Ramses the 2 d and the tomb that contained the burial of all or most of his sons and his eldest son lived to adulthood. There are many things supposed to have happened in the Exodus that could not possibly happened such as the parting of the Red Sea, scientists have made a wind machine that showed that any wind that would part the sea would also have made it impossible for any one to stand up let alone let them walk across it they would have not been able to stand. also the early writers stated that The Pharaoh and all his men and horses were drowned, then the newer versions changes that to just say the Pharaoh’s horse. The Bible is not a good book to learn the truth about a lot of things because of the many translations and contradictions and personal translations of that. One takes the word of human beings and humans like to make up stories or add their spin to them! ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/37 "2014-07-26T17:20:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Does the Bible ever _say_ that the Israelites were enslaved _to work on the Pyramids_? As opposed to the Kohl Mines or the Loincloth Weaving sweatshops? It just says something like “work in brick and mortar, and in the fields” and the Pyramids are cold-lain stone. I think it says they spent their time brick-making. As for the OP, that depends. Were the [Habiru](http://www.newenglishreview.org/Robert_Wolfe/From_Habiru_to_Hebrews%3A_The_Roots_of_the_Jewish_Tradition/) the same people as the Hebrews? Consensus, without any real reason, seems to be “no”. The Hibiru, however, appear in Egyptian records frequently, and as late as the fourth Rameses. They also get mentioned as quarry workers, as fleeing Egypt and in letters asking for help against an invasion of them sent from the Holy Land in the Amarna period. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/38 "2014-07-26T19:26:05Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > I think it says they spent their time brick-making. > > As for the OP, that depends. Were the [Habiru](http://www.newenglishreview.org/Robert_Wolfe/From_Habiru_to_Hebrews%3A_The_Roots_of_the_Jewish_Tradition/) the same people as the Hebrews? Consensus, without any real reason, seems to be “no”. The Hibiru, however, appear in Egyptian records frequently, and as late as the fourth Rameses. They also get mentioned as quarry workers, as fleeing Egypt and in letters asking for help against an invasion of them sent from the Holy Land in the Amarna period. On the other hand I do usually find the ones that proclaim constantly that “all other scholars are wrong” to be not so reliable. One has to then do a check, and it is more reasonable that the Habiru is what most scholars are reporting: > **[ʿApiru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru)** > > ʿApiru (Ugaritic: 𐎓𐎔𐎗𐎎, romanized: ʿPRM, Ancient Egyptian: 𓂝𓊪𓂋𓅱𓀀𓏥, romanized: ꜥprw), also known in the Akkadian version Ḫabiru (sometimes written Habiru, Ḫapiru or Hapiru; Akkadian: 𒄩𒁉𒊒, ḫa-bi-ru or \*ʿaperu) is a term used in 2nd-millennium BCE texts throughout the Fertile Crescent for a social status of people who were variously described as rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, bowmen, servants, slaves, and laborers. > The term was first discovered in its Akkadian version "ḫa-bi-ru" or "ḫa-pi-... > [@](#): > > As more texts were uncovered throughout the Near East, it became clear that the Habiru were mentioned in contexts ranging from unemployed agricultural workers and vagrants, to mounted mercenary bowmen. The context differed depending upon where the references were found. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/39 "2014-07-30T22:28:19Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > The Philistines were ethnically related to the Greeks. When the Mycenaean civilization collapsed at about the same time as the Exodus the population in Greece declined by as much as 75 percent. Many Greeks became pirates and raiders. The Egyptians called them “the people of the sea.” The Egyptians defeated many of them, and settled them in what is now Gaza. And became the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662/40 "2014-07-30T22:51:35Z")
The NAME “Palestine” does come from the Philistines. But it’s outlandish to imagine that today’s “Palestinians” are descendants of the Philistines, while today’s Israelis are descendants of the ancient Israelites. “Palestinian” today just means people who live in that area that aren’t Israeli citizens. A typical Palestinian is probably descended from Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, Macedonians, Persians, Arabs, Hebrews, Kurds, Franks, Turks, Vikings, Mongols, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Sumerians, and any each and every other random ethnic group that happened to wander through the area. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/egyptian-archaeology-and-biblical-history/693662.md?page=3)