Egyptian Archaeology and Biblical History

[DrDeth]

@monavis

i

If you read Exodus chapter 15 verse 19, in the older Douay version you will note it says the Pharaoh went in on horseback with his chariots and horsemen into the sea; and the lord brought back upon them the waters of the sea; but the children of Israel walked on dry ground in the midst thereof. Then read Chapter 15 Verse 19 in a newer K J V starts with: for the horse of the Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen etc. .One can take what ever they choose, Could one be a mistranslation ? why the difference? How does one know if many mistakes were made through the years or if they were done on purpose.?..we do not know.

“The horse” was a common usage during KJ time for “the cavalry”.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

First, minor wording point: The Hebrew text, regardless of KJV or Douay or modern translations, uses three different words, let’s call them “chariots,” “horses,” and “horsemen.” Exodus 15:19 is best translated as “Pharaoh’s Horses came with [their] chariots and riders…” Horses and chariots are know words, the word for “riders/horsemen” is somewhat unclear. It might mean “charioteer.” (Horseback riding was introduced to Egypt around 1300 BCE, give or take a century.)

I’m with tomndebb on this in general. We (i.e., based on history and archaeology and assuming nothing miraculous) know that the literal account can’t be true. That many people wandering the desert would have left tracks visible even today (caravan trails are detectable from satellite imagery.) We also know that water don’t turn to blood, etc.

However, just because some parts may be fictional doesn’t mean we need to throw out the whole thing. (Just because George Washington didn’t chop down a cherry tree, doesn’t mean he didn’t exist at all.)

We do know historically that the Pharaoh’s defaced and erased inscriptions about their predecessors that they didn’t like. And they never had inscriptions made about their losses, only their victories. So it is not implausible that escaping slaves would not be recorded anywhere, especially not if their escape was embarrassing to the Pharaoh. Thus, the absence of evidence is not itself “evidence.”

We also know that there are various bits of the story that reflect deep knowledge of Egyptian society. (Much of this, we’ve only learned in the past century or so.) I don’t have my sources handy, but there are lots of names, traditions, etc that could only have been written by someone who had lived in Egypt.

In terms of documentaries about not building pyramids: well, duh. Egyptian history spans several millenia, and the Israelites (according to the biblical story, take it or leave it) were only there for a couple hundred years. Others have already said, the pyramids were built long before. There are indeed records of many paid laborers, no question. But that doesn’t mean all laborers, over all centuries, were paid. We also know there were slaves, unpaid, and mistreated, and there would be no reason to record their lives, deaths, etc. The records of paid laborers exist because there were payments made, financial transactions, that were recorded.

[BrainGlutton]

@AK84

The religious accounts are based on faith and I for one do have that faith. But, as for history, from what we have been able to tell,

<snip>

iv) Egyptian rule ended sometime before the formation of Israel in Canaan.

We do not actually know when Israel or Judah was formed.

[BrainGlutton]

@Malthus

I’m not sure why this is significant. If the events surrounding the creation of the Declaration of Independence where party or wholly mythical, would that make the Declaration any less important - or for that matter, the US Constitution?

Yes, if it turned out the DOI was written by the Committees of Correspondence and they attributed it to a fictional Continental Congress to inflate perceived support for the Revolution, that would make the DOI less important.

[Malthus]

@BrainGlutton

Yes, if it turned out the DOI was written by the Committees of Correspondence and they attributed it to a fictional Continental Congress to inflate perceived support for the Revolution, that would make the DOI less important.

Really? If you discovered, in 2014, that the DOI was so attributed, you would what - make a political movement that the US be rejoined to mother England?

Point here is that independence is now a done deal.

[monavis]

@tomndebb

No. It does require literalism to make an issue of it.

The Commandments (either 10 or 613) are part of a tradition in which God selected the Jewish people to be a beacon of righteousness to the rest of the world. That tradition was encapsulated in stories that embody the mythology that supports that tradition. It is simply not necessary for the events to have happened, either in the manner they are portrayed or in some other manner, for that tradition to be true. The belief may be true or false, but as myth, in the anthropological sense, it need only be Story, not history.

The Declaration of Independence is a specific document that historically was used to sever ties between two peoples. If there was no Continental Congress, someone still wrote that document, (that we still possess), a war involving at least five nations was fought, and the nation of the United States still did come into existence. Even if someone proved that the DoI was part of a grand conspiracy, the results continue to this day.

Discovering whether any part of the Exodus story actually occurred might provide insight into the reasons behind various laws or traditions, but it would not change the basic Story and proving that it was invented would not change the meaning of the story.

Just one thing about that; No one can say God did anything or said any thing to anyone, just belief in what some human wrote or said he did. It is a matter of belief not fact. If someone claims God said anything today, we wonder about their mental state.

[Trinopus]

@monavis

. . . If someone claims God said anything today, we wonder about their mental state.

“Their mental state,” yes in some cases; there are such things as religious hallucinations, and some people are not aware of the tricks their own minds can play, and thus take these hallucinations as real events.

But one has to be careful not to call into question their “sanity,” as this sort of thing isn’t really madness, just poor discipline.

[tomndebb]

@monavis

Just one thing about that; No one can say God did anything or said any thing to anyone, just belief in what some human wrote or said he did. It is a matter of belief not fact. If someone claims God said anything today, we wonder about their mental state.

You have a real hang-up on butting into every similar discussion with this opinion.

Until someone actually makes a claim that God did or said any specific thing, it is a pointless observation. This thread addressed the issue of archaeological evidence for the events reported. Unless you find someone in this thread making claims that the bible is “true” regardless of a lack of evidence, you are doing nothing but pushing your own personal beliefs, here.

[simster]

@tomndebb

No. It does require literalism to make an issue of it.

The Commandments (either 10 or 613) are part of a tradition in which God selected the Jewish people to be a beacon of righteousness to the rest of the world. That tradition was encapsulated in stories that embody the mythology that supports that tradition. It is simply not necessary for the events to have happened, either in the manner they are portrayed or in some other manner, for that tradition to be true. The belief may be true or false, but as myth, in the anthropological sense, it need only be Story, not history.

The Declaration of Independence is a specific document that historically was used to sever ties between two peoples. If there was no Continental Congress, someone still wrote that document, (that we still possess), a war involving at least five nations was fought, and the nation of the United States still did come into existence. Even if someone proved that the DoI was part of a grand conspiracy, the results continue to this day.

Discovering whether any part of the Exodus story actually occurred might provide insight into the reasons behind various laws or traditions, but it would not change the basic Story and proving that it was invented would not change the meaning of the story.

tomndebb - this is well put.

It’s also what I wish alot of folks would begin to realize, instead of deifying the texts/traditions into something more than they should be.

[monavis]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

First, minor wording point: The Hebrew text, regardless of KJV or Douay or modern translations, uses three different words, let’s call them “chariots,” “horses,” and “horsemen.” Exodus 15:19 is best translated as “Pharaoh’s Horses came with [their] chariots and riders…” Horses and chariots are know words, the word for “riders/horsemen” is somewhat unclear. It might mean “charioteer.” (Horseback riding was introduced to Egypt around 1300 BCE, give or take a century.)

I’m with tomndebb on this in general. We (i.e., based on history and archaeology and assuming nothing miraculous) know that the literal account can’t be true. That many people wandering the desert would have left tracks visible even today (caravan trails are detectable from satellite imagery.) We also know that water don’t turn to blood, etc.

However, just because some parts may be fictional doesn’t mean we need to throw out the whole thing. (Just because George Washington didn’t chop down a cherry tree, doesn’t mean he didn’t exist at all.)

We do know historically that the Pharaoh’s defaced and erased inscriptions about their predecessors that they didn’t like. And they never had inscriptions made about their losses, only their victories. So it is not implausible that escaping slaves would not be recorded anywhere, especially not if their escape was embarrassing to the Pharaoh. Thus, the absence of evidence is not itself “evidence.”

We also know that there are various bits of the story that reflect deep knowledge of Egyptian society. (Much of this, we’ve only learned in the past century or so.) I don’t have my sources handy, but there are lots of names, traditions, etc that could only have been written by someone who had lived in Egypt.

In terms of documentaries about not building pyramids: well, duh. Egyptian history spans several millenia, and the Israelites (according to the biblical story, take it or leave it) were only there for a couple hundred years. Others have already said, the pyramids were built long before. There are indeed records of many paid laborers, no question. But that doesn’t mean all laborers, over all centuries, were paid. We also know there were slaves, unpaid, and mistreated, and there would be no reason to record their lives, deaths, etc. The records of paid laborers exist because there were payments made, financial transactions, that were recorded.

If one doesn’t think of the literal account doesn’t matter why does the R C C take the bread and wine as becoming the body and Blood of Jesus? Is it any different than any other literal passage? If such is the case then one can read into the Scriptures anything they choose. That would explain all the may factions of Christianity.

[monavis]

@tomndebb

You have a real hang-up on butting into every similar discussion with this opinion.

Until someone actually makes a claim that God did or said any specific thing, it is a pointless observation. This thread addressed the issue of archaeological evidence for the events reported. Unless you find someone in this thread making claims that the bible is “true” regardless of a lack of evidence, you are doing nothing but pushing your own personal beliefs, here.

Sorry, I was referring to the Biblical claim that God did or said something. I wasn’t referring to the other peoples post. I realize many take it for granted that God truly spoke, inspired, or did something.

I do accept the fact that it is their right to believe what ever helps them through life. Stating God said something is not a fact, at least there is no proof that happened. In searching for truth I just feel a person should deal with facts. It was my feeling that is what a debate is about. I do not fault anyone from their personal beliefs.

[AK84]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

(Snip)
We also know that there are various bits of the story that reflect deep knowledge of Egyptian society. (Much of this, we’ve only learned in the past century or so.) I don’t have my sources handy, but there are lots of names, traditions, etc that could only have been written by someone who had lived in Egypt.

.

While, I agree that the Bible has withstood archeological scrutiny surprisingly well, especially for David and after, could you please elaborate as to the sort,of knowledge that you allude to?

Thanks.

[DrDeth]

@monavis

Just one thing about that; No one can say God did anything or said any thing to anyone, just belief in what some human wrote or said he did. It is a matter of belief not fact. If someone claims God said anything today, we wonder about their mental state.

There are preachers every day that state that “God told them that…” and they are generally respected and listened to.

[UDS]

@DrDeth

There are preachers every day that state that “God told them that…” and they are generally respected and listened to.

For certain values of “generally”.

[monavis]

@DrDeth

There are preachers every day that state that “God told them that…” and they are generally respected and listened to.

Of course they do, but that doesn’t mean it is a fact, just a belief. Perhaps one could say that is Satan acting like an angel of light, as I believe the Bible states that Satan can do?