# Eh, (T)rebek? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808 "2011-08-07T05:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/61 "2011-08-07T20:35:45Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Regarding ‘truck’, how does one pronounce it _without_ saying ‘chruck’? Any recorded examples? This is slightly off-topic, but, I hope, of interest… One place I HAVE heard “tr–” pronounced just that way is in the Spanish of Costa Rica. Many Costa Rican Spanish speakers pronounce the “r” just as in English (this surprised me when I first heard it). But from what I’ve heard and recall, they keep the “t” as a “t” before the “r”, i.e., in _tractor_ (which is also a Spanish word.) Try it – this requires you to push out your lips, almost as if you were to pronounce the “oo” sound. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/62 "2011-08-07T20:41:14Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > This is slightly off-topic, but, I hope, of interest… > > One place I HAVE heard “tr–” pronounced just that way is in the Spanish of Costa Rica. Many Costa Rican Spanish speakers pronounce the “r” just as in English (this surprised me when I first heard it). But from what I’ve heard and recall, they keep the “t” as a “t” before the “r”, i.e., in _tractor_ (which is also a Spanish word.) Try it – this requires you to push out your lips, almost as if you were to pronounce the “oo” sound. In the Spanish I learned as a kid (which I take it is a standard Mexican dialect of some kind) the t sound is pronounced with no aspiration and with the tongue farther forward than in the English t. (Almost, but not quite, into ‘th’ territory.) If it’s the same in Costa Rican spanish, then “tractor” with a (spanish) t seems pretty natural. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/63 "2011-08-07T20:44:55Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > The schwa is the voicing which escapes between the articulation of the two, no matter how quickly your tongue moves. And when you have voicing, you have a syllable. Thanks – well put! To be fair to **Biffy** , I suppose that, at some “grain” of phonetic transcription which is useful for many purposes, writing the sound in question as an “l” (with no schwa before it) would be acceptable, with the voicing you and I are talking about just assumed as coming along with the territory. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/64 "2011-08-07T20:50:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In the Spanish I learned as a kid (which I take it is a standard Mexican dialect of some kind) the t sound is pronounced with no aspiration and with the tongue farther forward than in the English t. (Almost, but not quite, into ‘th’ territory.) If it’s the same in Costa Rican spanish, then “tractor” with a (spanish) t seems pretty natural. Great observation! I think that’s exactly it. The further-forward pronunciation of the Spanish “t” allows it to avoid palatization when followed by an “r”. And Costa Rica is the only place I know of (perhaps there are others) where this can be tested, because the Spanish “r” as pronounced everywhere else is a tap, flap, or trill, none of which encourages palatization of a preceding “t” (heck, it seems to me it _precludes_ palatization). ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/65 "2011-08-07T20:56:35Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > …writing the sound in question as an “l” (with no schwa before it) would be acceptable, with the voicing you and I are talking about just assumed as coming along with the territory. Well, that’s why the /l/ (and nasals such as /n/) are often referred to as “[syllabic consonants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_consonant)”: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Many dialects of English may use syllabic consonants in words such as even [ˈiːvn̩], awful [ˈɔːfɫ̩] and rhythm [ˈɹɪðm̩], which are usually regarded as realizations of underlying sequences of schwa plus consonant (/ˈiːvən/ etc). [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/66 "2011-08-07T21:05:36Z")
Neat, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/67 "2011-08-07T21:54:41Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Regarding ‘truck’, how does one pronounce it _without_ saying ‘chruck’? Any recorded examples? Hi Mr. **Polerius**. You were already linked to an audible dictionary, but I am mildly gobsmacked by the question. If you make a distinction between sense and cents, how can pronouncing truck with a TR be a mystery? Do the chruck people also say Star Chrek and Chruble and Chreble? Not that there’s anything wrong with that. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way, honest! No problem. It’s life on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/68 "2011-08-07T22:08:51Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hi Mr. **Polerius**. You were already linked to an audible dictionary, but I am mildly gobsmacked by the question. If you make a distinction between sense and cents, how can pronouncing truck with a TR be a mystery? While apparently it’s very common to pronounce “cents” and “sense” the same, and _less_ common (but still quite common) to pronounce “truck” as “chruck”, it’s not _inconceivable_ that someone would do the latter but not the former. > [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Do the chruck people also say Star Chrek and Chruble and Chreble? Speaking for myself – “Star Chrek” – Pretty much all the time. “Chreble” (for “treble”) – Most of the time, but not always. “Chruble” (for “trouble”) – Hmmm…I think maybe about 55% of the time. > [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > No problem. It’s life on a message board. Chrue dat! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/69 "2011-08-07T22:14:19Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Perhaps the analysis I made about having to insert an “uh” with the “l” is more universally germane when the “l” is, “by itself”, unquestionably syllabic, as in _beetle_ – or, if you prefer, _Beatle_. I wasn’t sure what you meant before, but get what you mean now. I’m not so sure that there’s a need to insert the “uh” between the “t” and the “l” in “beetle”. ( I can say "beetlee " just like I can say “idlee”)) I suspect this is an example of a change in either spelling or pronunciation over time. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/70 "2011-08-07T22:14:37Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hi Mr. **Polerius**. You were already linked to an audible dictionary, That was supposed to be an example of someone _not_ saying “chruck”?! I ask because the the linked-to entry contains a recording of someone quite manifestingly pronouncing the initial sound as “ch” and not “t”. > [@](#): > > Do the chruck people also say Star Chrek and Chruble and Chreble? Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/71 "2011-08-07T22:26:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That was supposed to be an example of someone _not_ saying “chruck”?! > > I ask because the the linked-to entry contains a recording of someone quite manifestingly pronouncing the initial sound as “ch” and not “t”. I’ve been having some problems with my left ear for the past few days, and I’m using the built in speakers in my iMac, but I hear Truck with a TR. Maybe a poll is in order. And **JKellyMap** , my surprise was not that **Polerius** said _chruck_, but that he should have difficulty imagining how to pronounce it with a _tr_ sound. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/72 "2011-08-07T22:35:13Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I wasn’t sure what you meant before, but get what you mean now. I’m not so sure that there’s a need to insert the “uh” between the “t” and the “l” in “beetle”. ( I can say "beetlee " just like I can say “idlee”)) I suspect this is an example of a change in either spelling or pronunciation over time. See **Guizot** ’s post #60…There definitely is an “uh” in there (even though your mouth is pretty much already in position for the “l”), but it’s only sometimes included in phonetic transcriptions, because it’s such a predictable part of its ‘environment’. So, it was never pronounced without the “uh” (physical impossibility). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/73 "2011-08-07T22:38:24Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > And **JKellyMap** , my surprise was not that **Polerius** said _chruck_, but that he should have difficulty imagining how to pronounce it with a _tr_ sound. Ah, got it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/74 "2011-08-07T22:44:37Z")
I say chruck. Well, I’ll be. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/75 "2011-08-07T22:50:30Z")
Poll [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=619424). It covers who says what and how they hear the audible dictionary’s version. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/76 "2011-08-07T23:04:06Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > See **Guizot** ’s post #60…There definitely is an “uh” in there (even though your mouth is pretty much already in position for the “l”), but it’s only sometimes included in phonetic transcriptions, because it’s such a predictable part of its ‘environment’. > > So, it was never pronounced without the “uh” (physical impossibility). There may be an imperceptible (at least to me ) “uh” in “idlee” or “badly” but it’s definitely not the same as the very obvious vowel ( I’ve heard it as “uh” , “ih” or “eh”) in “beetle”'. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/77 "2011-08-07T23:13:06Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > There may be an imperceptible (at least to me ) “uh” in “idlee” or “badly” but it’s definitely not the same as the very obvious vowel ( I’ve heard it as “uh” , “ih” or “eh”) in “beetle”'. Agreed. That wasn’t what I understood you to mean when you wrote, “I’m not so sure that there’s a need to insert the “uh” between the “t” and the “l” in “beetle”.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/78 "2011-08-07T23:37:32Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Agreed. That wasn’t what I understood you to mean when you wrote, “I’m not so sure that there’s a need to insert the “uh” between the “t” and the “l” in “beetle”.” What I meant (sorry I wasn’t clear) is that because it’s such an obvious sound, I don’t think it’s an example of needing to insert an “uh” as with “idli” and “badly” but rather an example of a word that always had the pronounced “uh” but probably used to be spelled differently . I checked and it is - the word comes from the Middle English “betylle” and the Old English “bitela”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/79 "2011-08-07T23:47:55Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Yeah, I’ve been through that. “Sing” has the “ee” sound. (Sorry, I still haven’t bothered to learn how to type IPA!) If I stop before saying the “ng” then I end up saying “see,” not “sih.” (Where ih here is supposed to represent the “short i” sound.) There are some American accents in which this occurs, most notably Appalachian accents. Very often this kind of accent Also pronounces “milk” as “melk.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808/80 "2011-08-08T00:04:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There are some American accents in which this occurs, most notably Appalachian accents. Very often this kind of accent Also pronounces “milk” as “melk.” I’m from DFW, I say “seeng” and “milk.” I really hope I can find a clip or something of someone unquesitonably saying “sing” with a short i. I’ve never been able to identify an instance of it… but maybe I’m just not hearing it accurately. Is there some popular song that has a long “siiiiiiing” in it? If so, maybe if I could listen to clips of people singing that song… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eh-t-rebek/591808.md?page=5)