# Either Star Trek or Middle-earth is to be removed from history. Y'all choose **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677 "2013-06-10T23:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/21 "2013-06-11T02:18:51Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > By sheer volume alone ST has 100’s more hours of entertainment than Hobbit type movies. Peter Jackson ain’t done yet. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/22 "2013-06-11T03:04:39Z")
Lord of the Rings is gone. It is for nerds anyway ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/23 "2013-06-11T03:04:40Z")
Both were important to my childhood, but Tolkien’s grasp of mythology, and use of Scandinavian and Finnish elements make it dear to my heart all through my adulthood, too. I wouldn’t mind if you excised Peter Jackson and his movies, however. As much as I esteem Leonard Nimoy and the chemisty Spock, Kirk, and Bones had with each other, Trek, it is overbalanced by ickiness of Next Generation (Riker is loathesome even with the beard, and need Wesley Crusher even be mentioned?), so you may excise Star Trek. Where’s the chocolate cheesecake? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/24 "2013-06-11T03:05:37Z")
If I had to choose between only the two, and everything else would still magically exist untouched, I would easily get rid of LOTR and keep Trek. But if we’re re-writing history, I feel like getting rid of LOTR would probably cost me a lot more of my favorite works than Trek. It really did set down most everything basic of sword and sorcery fiction. On the other hand, would sci-fi exist as we know it without Trek? I dunno, that’s hard. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/25 "2013-06-11T03:11:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Nobody decides to become a wizard in real life because they were inspired by _The Lord of the Rings_. Science fiction, on the other hand, inspires young people to enter the fields of science and engineering as well as science fiction. And this is why Star Trek must die- it’s not science fiction. Generations of kids are growing up learning bad, stupid, false science from Star Trek. Then there’s that Darmok nonsense. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/26 "2013-06-11T04:15:04Z")
Toldien is, arguably, the second greatest writer of English literature (after Shakespeare, of course). His works are a finely-crafted gem of storytelling. I love Star Trek. But it was just the best of a large number of pretty-good futuristic franchises. I feel one of the others could rise to greatness and fill the void. But nothing can fill in for Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/27 "2013-06-11T05:39:42Z")
If there’s no Tolkein, is there any Dungeons & Dragons? ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/28 "2013-06-11T05:43:05Z")
Not even a close call, seeya Spock and co. I never got into Star Trek at all, I saw enough people running round in the coloured skivvies in “Lost in space”, so feel free to wipe it out. LoTR on the other hand I first read in the 80’s, you aint taking that away. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/29 "2013-06-11T05:58:38Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If there’s no Tolkein, is there any Dungeons & Dragons? D&D owes its existence to Jack Vance, not to Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/30 "2013-06-11T06:00:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If there’s no Tolkein, is there any Dungeons & Dragons? Hmmm…a lot of D&D is [del]shamelessly stolen from[/del] _inspired by_ Tolkien, but Gygax [del]stole from[/del] _drew upon_ other sources as well. I think the game would probably still exist, but some of the lore and magic items may not. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Hmm. I hadn’t thought of the LZ issue. That’s another reason to rid the world of Tolkien! You know I can’t let you do this, right? Either way. The Lion and Old One Eye just won’t allow it to happen, and I end up getting stuck with their dirty work. Again. But here’s what I’m willing to do. You can’t erase Tolkien or Star Trek, but you may have Justin Bieber to feed to the Elder God of your choice. We’ll put in on Interdimensional PPV, and split the profits. Deal? ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/31 "2013-06-11T06:37:17Z")
I’ve never read any of the LOTR books or really had any interest in them. I watched the movies because an ex-GF liked them. They were OK, but really didn’t do very much for me. I grew up watching ST:TOS reruns in the 70’s. I had a bunch of ST toys, etc. (Star Trek Bridge Playset!:)) ST was a big part of my childhood, so you can get rid of all the LOTR stuff. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/32 "2013-06-11T06:57:11Z")
I like Star Trek, but it wasn’t, frankly, anything very original. It was just a version, translated into the format of series TV, of a particular sub-genre of the sort of print science fiction that was already abundant. Star Trek (TOS especially) is special because, unlike most other attempts to bring SF to the (big or small) screen, it did not fuck it up, and completely lose the feel and idea-driven, storytelling spirit of the genre, but it did not really add much of any artistic substance to what was already available in print SF, and, if Roddenberry hadn’t pulled off the translation, somebody else would probably have managed it sooner or later. LOTR, by contrast, was a thoroughly original creation when it appeared, and, although it has spawned a million imitators, it has never been surpassed. It also has an emotional depth and mythic resonance that goes far beyond anything Star Trek has been able to achieve, even over its long history of multiple series and movies spanning centuries of “future history”. There is really no serious contest here. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/33 "2013-06-11T07:04:32Z")
OK, even if it can’t be an OR option, can Star Wars at least be an AND option? Star Trek AND Star Wars or Tolkien AND Star Wars? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/34 "2013-06-11T07:04:59Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > You can’t erase Tolkien or Star Trek, but you may have Justin Bieber to feed to the Elder God of your choice. We’ll put in on Interdimensional PPV, and split the profits. Deal? Better rethink that. I’m fairly certain that Bieber is one of the lesser servitors whose mad, cacophonous piping keeps Azathoth in his uneasy slumber. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/35 "2013-06-11T07:08:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Hmmm…a lot of D&D is [del]shamelessly stolen from[/del] _inspired by_ Tolkien, but Gygax [del]stole from[/del] _drew upon_ other sources as well. I think the game would probably still exist, but some of the lore and magic items may not. Yeah, but how many of those other sources were, themselves, inspired by Tolkien? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/36 "2013-06-11T08:59:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Better rethink that. I’m fairly certain that Bieber is one of the lesser servitors whose mad, cacophonous piping keeps Azathoth in his uneasy slumber. And besides, isn’t the idea to _decrease_ the amount of general happiness in the world? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/37 "2013-06-11T13:06:10Z")
Hmmm, lose Star Trek and you lose Star Trek conventions, which means you lose SF conventions, which means you lose SF/Fantasy conventions, which have been some of the fondest memories of my life. BUT, lose LOTR and you lose Dungeons & Dragons and all the succeeding RPGs, and as a lifelong Gamemaster, that’s unthinkable. Can’t you just take out Disney instead? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/38 "2013-06-11T13:07:46Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/39 "2013-06-11T13:17:24Z")
Tolkien seems more of a bedrock of modern fantasy than Star Trek does for modern science fiction. They’re both important to their genres but I suspect science fiction would have found a way around the ST void and wound up in about the same place. In contrast, I don’t know if high fantasy would exist as a mass media product without Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/40 "2013-06-11T13:53:39Z")
I didn’t read Star Trek novelizations to my little girl. I read _The Hobbit_. Star Trek can go. It had some nice bits, but lots of naffery. All those Klingon speakers in bad forehead makeup can learn Quenya for their exclusionary in-speak. Although there aren’t too many plus-sized elves so they might have a problem there… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=3)