# Either Star Trek or Middle-earth is to be removed from history. Y'all choose **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677 "2013-06-10T23:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/41 "2013-06-11T14:14:38Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > In contrast, I don’t know if high fantasy would exist as a mass media product without Tolkien. One more reason to kill it. If we have to sacrifice Tolkien to rid the world of Robert Jordan, Terry Brooks and George R.R. Martin, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Swamp\_Adder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Swamp\_Adder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swamp_Adder)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/42 "2013-06-11T14:25:46Z")
I like Star Trek (original series) a lot, so I would be sad to see it go, but Tolkien is much more important to me. I like Trek for the characters, but as far as SF is concerned it’s neither particularly good nor particularly original. Tolkien, on the other hand, was one of a kind. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/43 "2013-06-11T14:53:27Z")
Never got into Star Trek at all- I don’t think I’ve ever seen a full episode, and if I did, I can’t remember it. I enjoy a lot of sci-fi, but Star Trek does nothing at all for me. I’ve read The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings _and_ the Silmarillion at least once a year since I was 15, (well, since age 10 for the Hobbit, 12 for LOTR and 15 for the Silmarillion) as well as being brought up listening to the BBC radio adaptations. Plus my Dad starts talking in Elvish when he’s drunk, and that’s freaking hilarious. If you’re taking Star Trek anyway, can you take all the appalling ‘Tolkien Influenced’ shameless rip-off stuff while you’re at it? You know, the stuff with a guy called ‘Argaron’ the secret heir of ‘Gandur’ who helps destroy a Magical Necklace of Doom, together with his wizard friend ‘Gnadnalf’? Please? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/44 "2013-06-11T15:45:18Z")
I love both Middle-earth and _Star Trek_ very, very much, and would hate to lose either. But **Skald** says I must choose - Sophie didn’t have it so hard! - so choose I must. Think think think. I guess… I’d lose Middle-earth. And then reconsider my stance on suicide. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/45 "2013-06-11T15:49:00Z")
Tough call, but Middle Earth didn’t spark my imagination the way Star Trek did. Stories of Middle Earth may provide entertainment, but I wouldn’t want to live there or be any of the characters. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/46 "2013-06-11T16:31:04Z")
Get rid of Trek - the stories it told will come back to life in other stories - Tolkien’s work, however, could not be duplicated, no matter how many rhymer monkeys you threw at it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/47 "2013-06-11T16:31:34Z")
Much as I like Star Trek, I’ll vote for it to go, because as long as Forbidden Planet still existed, something else different, but very similar to Star Trek would probably have followed it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/48 "2013-06-11T16:34:19Z")
I swear by all that’s unholy, **Skald** , that if you hop into that continua buggy to take out EITHER of your potential targets, I will be your anti-Clara Oswin Oswald and leap into the timestream myself, shattering into infinite echoes of myself to thwart your every attempt throughout spacetime. Be warned… On the other hand, there’s this guy from Modesto, California, I could suggest as a compromise target, circa 1975. He made a little movie about 1950s teenagers and cars…you probably haven’t heard of it. Go…no, go now. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/49 "2013-06-11T16:49:10Z")
Sorry, Trek, pack your bags. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/50 "2013-06-11T17:45:16Z")
I literally can’t choose. Both of them have shaped my life immeasurably (albeit tangentially): Without Tolkien and LOTR there might not have been D&D, and since pen and paper RPGs define a big chunk of my life then I couldn’t bear losing them. It’s not so much that I’m a big LOTR fan–just that I really need what grew out of it to be around. So if you can guarantee me that somebody would have invented Dungeons and Dragons without the influence of LOTR (thus allowing all of its offshoots), then I’ll pick that to die. On the other hand, Star Trek was my constant companion during my teen years. I devoured the TOS reruns, read all the books, made contact with other fans, and discovered some of my favorite books that were written by or recommended by Trek fans. Not a big fan of the later Trek (anything past TOS), though. Hrm. Bottom line, I guess: If the RPG industry continued unaffected by the existence of LOTR, then kill LOTR. If not, then kill Trek. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/51 "2013-06-11T19:16:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > There was fantasy before LoTR, (E R Edison, Conan the Barbarian, and so on) but it was not particularly widespread nor popular. **It was seen as a _children’s_ genre**. _Was?_ _ducks_ ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/52 "2013-06-11T19:22:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Nobody decides to become a wizard in real life because they were inspired by _The Lord of the Rings_. Science fiction, on the other hand, inspires young people to enter the fields of science and engineering as well as science fiction. So I feel the loss of Star Trek would have a greater impact outside of its genre. This is actually quite a good argument. But not enough. As others have noted Tolkien’s impact is HUGE, while Star Trek’s is simply substantial - much as I enjoy it there are reams and reams of ( better ) sf that would exist without it. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/53 "2013-06-11T19:37:43Z")
As noted above, Trek is all well and good, but Tolkien is seminal. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/54 "2013-06-11T20:05:55Z")
The thing about trek is that it, overall, originated nothing that didn’t already exist in the writings and culture of the time - save, maybe, optimism for our species. It was/is a huge cultural phenom - but if it were missing, I don’t htink we would be ‘missing’ anything at all - Take away Tolkien - I don’t want to live in that world. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/55 "2013-06-11T20:35:24Z")
I just don’t think you can ignore the much greater reach that television and movies have over books and magazines. I’m sure more people are familiar with The Lord of the Rings via Peter Jackson than J.R.R. Tolkien. And I’m sure more people are familiar with science fiction via Gene Roddenberry than Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov, and Arthur Clarke combined. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/56 "2013-06-11T22:40:31Z")
That’s those peoples’ problem. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/57 "2013-06-11T23:14:05Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > D&D owes its existence to Jack Vance, not to Tolkien. Perhaps, but it owes its players to Tolkien - more’s the pity. SF was mature enough so that fans of Trek could move on to other things. There is plenty of great non-Tolkien fantasy also, but fans of LOTR seem to often move on to derivative crap like by Terry Brooks. There was an attempt to publish good classic fantasy to capitalize on Tolkien, but it looks like the garbage won out. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/58 "2013-06-11T23:18:15Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Hmmm, lose Star Trek and you lose Star Trek conventions, which means you lose SF conventions, which means you lose SF/Fantasy conventions, which have been some of the fondest memories of my life. There were SF conventions long before ST, and the ones I went to in the very early '70s had little ST content. They managed. You might lose attendees who were unaware that sf can be bought to read in books not involving TV characters, though. Not a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Bisector](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ce73a5/32.png) [@Black\_Bisector](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Black_Bisector)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/59 "2013-06-11T23:43:18Z")
You can have my Tolkien when you pry it from my COLD DEAD HANDS! Not that I’m actually a fan really. I should clarify… You can have my D&D, AD&D, D&D 2nd Edition, Planescape, Abeir-Toril, D&D 3.0, Pathfinder, Golarion and all the worlds of me, my friends and family when you pry it from my COLD DEAD HANDS!! Screw Trek, I agree with several peeps above, Scy Fy _cough_ Science Fiction lives on without Trek and will find something newer and hopefully more awesomer. Uhura and New Uhura would be mourned. As would Orion slave girls. However I’m sure the Elerian alien space babes and the women of Farscape can satisfy my ogling needs. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/60 "2013-06-12T01:10:14Z")
You guys aren’t reading the hypothetical. History is not actually being changed. Tolkien’s works still happened, so stuff derived from his work still happened. While high fantasy itself is interesting, Tolkien’s works specifically aren’t that big a deal anymore. I mean, if you personally like LoTR more than Star Trek, fine. But reasons based on history are silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=4)