# Either Star Trek or Middle-earth is to be removed from history. Y'all choose **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677 "2013-06-10T23:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/61 "2013-06-12T05:52:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You guys aren’t reading the hypothetical. History is not actually being changed. Tolkien’s works still happened, so stuff derived from his work still happened. Hypothetical: > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll be modifying one of the orbiting 1920s’ death rays so as remove all vestiges of either Roddenberry’s or Tolkien’s works ( **and their derivatives, natch** ) from the Earth. > > This ray will also fuck with everyone’s memory, so you’ll have a vague memory of loving (or hating) Trek or LotR Emphasis added. Tolkien’s “derivatives” in particular are absolutely legion - they may have still happened, but **Skald** just eliminated all of them and left vague memories of loss behind. Tomato, tomahto - you’re not altering history before it happened, but you are largely erasing it after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/62 "2013-06-12T06:12:29Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > One more reason to kill it. If we have to sacrifice Tolkien to rid the world of Robert Jordan, Terry Brooks and George R.R. Martin, so be it. Yes, but if we sacrifice Star Trek, we will be rid of Voyager, Enterprise, about half of TNG, at least a quarter of the original series, and a good ten out of twelve Star Trek movies. So, I’d call that a wash. Deep Space 9 would be a bit of a loss, but we’d likely still have Babylon 5, so that’s not too big of a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/63 "2013-06-12T09:15:55Z")
I’d say it depends on how loose a definition of “derivatives” Skald is going with. You could make an argument that without _Star Trek_ paving the way, there wouldn’t have been _Battlestar Galactica_ or _Babylon 5_ or _Firefly_ or _StarGate_. ---
**Author:** ![Rala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Rala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rala)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/64 "2013-06-12T10:52:14Z")
I voted to lose Star Trek. I love it, but science fiction as a genre would be just as awesome if it had never existed. Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, practically invented high fantasy as we know it. We can’t give that up. Then I read the thread, and the comments about fan communities reminded me that I met my beloved through Star Trek. Crap. I should have thought this through. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/65 "2013-06-12T10:57:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There were SF conventions long before ST, and the ones I went to in the very early '70s had little ST content. They managed. You might lose attendees who were unaware that sf can be bought to read in books not involving TV characters, though. Not a bad thing. Right, SF conventions before ST had attendance figures that mounted up into the dozens. Without the fan push of ST, they’d still be there, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/66 "2013-06-12T11:04:25Z")
Trek? Gone. I watched the original Trek in reruns when I was a kid, and Next Generation as a teen. I read mostly SF&F, _heavily_ weighted toward the SF side of things lately, and I’d still axe Trek in a nanosecond. There were some really good things about it, but some of it was hokey even at the time and hasn’t aged well. For all the Trekkie talk about how it’s more sciency than Star Wars, most of the tech seemed to have been powered by phlogiston, and made out of unobtanium-plated handwavium. As I pointed out in another thread recently, you could swap most of the technobabble with Harry Potter terminology without much ancillary rewriting necessary. Tolkien’s work is just as timeless now as it was the day it was published. If I had to bet on which of the two would be preserved and read 200 years from now, I would have no doubt where to place my money. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/67 "2013-06-12T11:21:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Better rethink that. I’m fairly certain that Bieber is one of the lesser servitors whose mad, cacophonous piping keeps Azathoth in his uneasy slumber. Have you seen this? It certainly lends credence to your theory: [Harry Partridge’s “The Justin Bieber Show”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVLmC8Motfg) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/68 "2013-06-12T14:26:55Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#): > > Have you seen this? It certainly lends credence to your theory: > > [Harry Partridge’s “The Justin Bieber Show”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVLmC8Motfg) I don’t know what that is, but it crashed my browser. Proof of some grand evil, I’m sure ;). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/69 "2013-06-12T14:38:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, but if we sacrifice Star Trek, we will be rid of Voyager, Enterprise, about half of TNG, at least a quarter of the original series, and a good ten out of twelve Star Trek movies. So, I’d call that a wash. > > Deep Space 9 would be a bit of a loss, but we’d likely still have Babylon 5, so that’s not too big of a deal. Aaand…without _Star Trek_ to reboot and screw up, Abrams likely wouldn’t have gotten the gig to further screw up _Star Wars_. No reboot alone makes it worth flipping my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/70 "2013-06-12T19:01:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, but how many of those other sources were, themselves, inspired by Tolkien? Not as many as one might think. Arthurian legend and mythology from various cultures predate Tolkien, as do the Middle Ages. Dwarves, elves, gnomes, trolls, giants, goblins, dragons, undead, angels, demons, etc…all known Pre-Tolkien. Armor and weapon types–Pre-Tolkien. Notions of spellcasters of various types–Pre-Tolkien. I think D&D still happens even if Tolkien doesn’t, and the game would be largely recognizable to current players, but certain levels of flavor/context would be missing or different. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/71 "2013-06-12T19:03:15Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Hmmm…a lot of D&D is [del]shamelessly stolen from[/del] _inspired by_ Tolkien, but Gygax [del]stole from[/del] _drew upon_ other sources as well. I think the game would probably still exist, but some of the lore and magic items may not. > > You know I can’t let you do this, right? Either way. The Lion and Old One Eye just won’t allow it to happen, and I end up getting stuck with their dirty work. Again. > > But here’s what I’m willing to do. You can’t erase Tolkien or Star Trek, but you may have Justin Bieber to feed to the Elder God of your choice. We’ll put in on Interdimensional PPV, and split the profits. Deal? The plan is to make the world WORSE. But anyway, I am a sadist, not a nihilist. The Elder Gods want to destroy the universe. The universe is where I keep all my stuff. Therefore simple logic (not to mention the will of Athena) impels me to oppose them. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Tough call, but Middle Earth didn’t spark my imagination the way Star Trek did. Stories of Middle Earth may provide entertainment, but I wouldn’t want to live there or be any of the characters. Where and when in the TrekVerse would you wish to live? I need somebody to go rescue Jadzia Dax from Gul Dukat (while depositing a hookerbot to die in her place). You don’t need to know the reasons beyond _Because Pallas says so_. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Hypothetical: > > Emphasis added. Tolkien’s “derivatives” in particular are absolutely legion - they may have still happened, but **Skald** just eliminated all of them and left vague memories of loss behind. Tomato, tomahto - you’re not altering history before it happened, but you are largely erasing it after the fact. Quite right. YOu’ll never be able to watch TOS, DS9, Wrath of Khan, and so forth again, or remember any details about them (or read Silmarillion, Hobbit, etc), but you’ll recall that you once loved them. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/72 "2013-06-12T19:08:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Can I divert the satellites to hit, say, _Buck Rogers_ instead? If you can reprogram a Rhymer Enterprises satellite without being killed, obviously we’ll be offering you a job. If you get killed by one of the booby-traps–well, that is obviously your problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/73 "2013-06-12T19:22:40Z")
Beardpig says lose Tolkien. The greatest fantasy novel ever written was _The Once and Future King,_ anyway, and the world of tabletop games will still have Tekumel and Traveller. As much as I have enjoyed works of fantasy in my life, I have to say that science fiction is more significant, on a social and cultural scale. Science fiction is the means by which people think about and explore possibilities for _where we are going_ and _what we will do._ As much as can be done with fantasy, in terms of telling stories about human beings and human motivations, it’s nothing that couldn’t be done in a conventional work of literary fiction, set in the present day or in some historical venue. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/74 "2013-06-12T20:07:36Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > As much as I have enjoyed works of fantasy in my life, I have to say that science fiction is more significant, on a social and cultural scale. Even accepting that argument, what about the idea that science fiction as a genre is far, far, FAR less dependent on Star Trek than modern fantasy is on Tolkien? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/75 "2013-06-12T20:10:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Nobody decides to become a wizard in real life because they were inspired by _The Lord of the Rings_. Are you sure? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/76 "2013-06-12T20:11:12Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > As noted above, Trek is all well and good, but Tolkien is seminal. :mad: Hey, I got somethin’ seminal right here . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/77 "2013-06-12T20:13:01Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The thing about trek is that it, overall, originated nothing that didn’t already exist in the writings and culture of the time - save, maybe, optimism for our species. > > It was/is a huge cultural phenom - but if it were missing, I don’t htink we would be ‘missing’ anything at all - > > Take away Tolkien - I don’t want to live in that world. You’ve got that just backwards. Tolkein was merely doing a prose update of medieval heroic sagas. _ST_ – high-quality interstellar space opera on the little screen – was a **new** concept for its day. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/78 "2013-06-12T20:14:18Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Even accepting that argument, what about the idea that science fiction as a genre is far, far, FAR less dependent on Star Trek than modern fantasy is on Tolkien? Then ST remains more valuable than Tolkein, as representing a far more valuable genre. Better run-of-the-mill SF than seminal fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/79 "2013-06-12T20:25:00Z")
Anyway, the division that matters is not between _Star Trek_ fans and Tolkein fans. The division that matters is between _Star Trek_ fans and _Star Wars_ fans. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/80 "2013-06-12T20:29:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The division that matters is between _Star Trek_ fans and _Star Wars_ fans. Completely delusional fanboys worshiping an imaginary world that could never be? But then how to describe the Star Wars fans? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=5)