# Either Star Trek or Middle-earth is to be removed from history. Y'all choose **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677 "2013-06-10T23:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/101 "2013-06-13T15:33:41Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Some librarians (probably not the majority, though) claim SF is an abbreviation for “Speculative Fiction”, hoping to mitigate this inconsistancy. You are missing the point entirely. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/102 "2013-06-13T15:51:21Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Star Trek filled a special place in many people’s hearts and minds of that era. We saw a future world that was beyond the nuclear spectre of death. An entire interstellar Federation comprised of multiple alien species who cooperated to create something that one species could not do so alone. During a time of bleak despair (and I do not overstate this, as I was there and at the age of 8 was pretty much ready for those darned Russians to H-bomb Atlanta any minute now) Star Trek gave us a hope that things might work out eventually. With bonus points for casually having Chekhov working alongside Sulu and Uhura on the bridge as fellow officers: for us it was the height of the Cold War, for them it was a time where researchers and physicians from all over the globe are on the same team as guys who only use force as a last resort – all of them deferring to Captain Kirk, sure as Kirk thinks nothing of being outranked by guys like Commodore Stone and Commodore Mendez; the mission, humanity’s mission, is what matters. “They used to say if man could fly, he’d have wings. But he did fly; he discovered he had to. Do you wish that the first Apollo mission hadn’t reached the moon, or that we hadn’t gone on to Mars and then to the nearest star? That’s like saying you wish that you still operated with scalpels and sewed your patients up with catgut like your great-great-great-great-grandfather used to. I’m in command. I could order this. But I’m not, because Doctor McCoy is right in pointing out the enormous danger potential in any contact with life and intelligence as fantastically advanced as this. But I must point out that the possibilities, the potential for knowledge and advancement is equally great. Risk? Risk is our business! That’s what this starship is all about! That’s why we’re aboard her!” ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/103 "2013-06-13T16:07:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You are missing the point entirely. Oh? I hate it when I do that. What is the point exactly? That actual science-fiction is being relegated to second place by fantasy? ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/104 "2013-06-13T16:21:45Z")
Eliminate Middle Earth, keep Star Trek. I think it’s better to be hopeful for the future of humanity than romantic for its past. Not an easy choice, to be sure. I feel that much of LotR is of significantly higher quality than much of Star Trek, but I think that the cultural impact of Star Trek’s loss would be greater. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/105 "2013-06-13T16:23:17Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Oh? I hate it when I do that. What is the point exactly? That actual science-fiction is being relegated to second place by fantasy? That. Retrodeath to Tolkein!!! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/106 "2013-06-13T16:28:44Z")
If only it were that easy! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/107 "2013-06-13T17:47:20Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Eliminate Middle Earth, keep Star Trek. I think it’s better to be hopeful for the future of humanity than romantic for its past. I just wanted to add that the quote I copy-and-pasted – the one where Kirk looks back to how the Apollo mission landed men on the moon – is from an episode that aired in 1968. There’s something wonderful about that. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/108 "2013-06-13T18:13:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > With bonus points for casually having Chekhov working alongside Sulu and Uhura on the bridge as fellow officers: for us it was the height of the Cold War, for them it was a time where researchers and physicians from all over the globe are on the same team as guys who only use force as a last resort – all of them deferring to Captain Kirk, sure as Kirk thinks nothing of being outranked by guys like Commodore Stone and Commodore Mendez; the mission, humanity’s mission, is what matters. > > “They used to say if man could fly, he’d have wings. But he did fly; he discovered he had to. Do you wish that the first Apollo mission hadn’t reached the moon, or that we hadn’t gone on to Mars and then to the nearest star? That’s like saying you wish that you still operated with scalpels and sewed your patients up with catgut like your great-great-great-great-grandfather used to. I’m in command. I could order this. But I’m not, because Doctor McCoy is right in pointing out the enormous danger potential in any contact with life and intelligence as fantastically advanced as this. But I must point out that the possibilities, the potential for knowledge and advancement is equally great. Risk? Risk is our business! That’s what this starship is all about! That’s why we’re aboard her!” Ah yes, _Return to Tomorrow_. Mr. Nimoy was really amusing in that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/109 "2013-06-13T18:25:59Z")
“I think that science fiction, even the corniest of it, even the most outlandish of it, no matter how badly it’s written, has a distinct therapeutic value because _all_ of it has as its primary postulate that the world _does_ change. I cannot overemphasize the importance of that idea.” – Robert Heinlein, “The Discovery of the Future,” Guest of Honor Speech, 3rd World Science Fiction Convention, Denver, Colorado (1941) ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/110 "2013-06-13T18:29:29Z")
Perhaps instead of destroying one or the other, they could be almagamated into one? Captain Frodo! Klingorcs off the starboard bow! I mean, after all, both Elves and Vulcans have pointy ears. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/111 "2013-06-13T22:12:30Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Perhaps instead of destroying one or the other, they could be almagamated into one? > > Captain Frodo! Klingorcs off the starboard bow! > > I mean, after all, both Elves and Vulcans have pointy ears. 😃 That is highly illogical, Professor. I shall have to send my familiar spirits to deal with you. ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/112 "2013-06-13T22:49:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is highly illogical, Professor. I shall have to send my familiar spirits to deal with you. Shieldmaiden Uhura, get Aragon on the subspace Palantir. Ensign Pippin, lay in a course for the Gondor, Warp Factor Seven. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/113 "2013-06-13T22:52:03Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > Shieldmaiden Uhura, get Aragon on the subspace Palantir. Ensign Pippin, lay in a course for the Gondor, Warp Factor Seven. CHIEF ENGINEER GIMLI: The Arkenstone crystals, Captain! They kinna hold out much longer! This was bound to happen at some point in this thread . . . ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/114 "2013-06-13T23:02:29Z")
Somewhere there is undoubtedly fanfic which does exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/115 "2013-06-13T23:21:36Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Somewhere there is undoubtedly fanfic which does exactly that. But with more Vulcan/Orc slash action. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/116 "2013-06-13T23:38:59Z")
One origin for the Orcs is that they are twisted Elves. Romulans and Vulcans, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.Pu-du-he-pa-as)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/117 "2013-06-13T23:45:42Z")
I would eliminate _Lord of the Rings_, on the grounds that _Star Trek_ presents a far superior array of female characters. I’m not just talking about female main characters, though _Star Trek_ obviously wins on those grounds. There are vastly more female main characters-- we have Uhura, Crusher, Troy, Kira, Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax, Janeway, B’Elanna, Kes, and Seven of Nine. In _Lord of the Rings_, we just have Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. Not only are there far fewer female characters in _Lord of the Rings_, they are also far less central to the plot and receive far less “screen time,” as it were, than the main male characters. _Star Trek_ admittedly did not start out strong with female characters in the Original Series or even in the Next Generation, but to that I say that (1) the point of this exercise is to compare all of _Star Trek_ to all of _Lord of the Rings_; (2) In _Star Trek_, Uhura appears in every episode (or almost every episode), and is more central to the plot and holds a great position of power and responsibility than can be said for any of the _Lord of the Rings_ women, and (3) _Star Trek_ may have started slow but it did get better. But, what _Lord of the Rings_ really lacks are the sort of peripheral female characters you’d expect to show up tangentally and in the normal course of things. You’d expect to see the odd wife, mother, sister, or daughter. But, apart from the characters named above, you just don’t. Tolkien may have given relatively little attention to female main characters, but he seems to have given absolutely no thought to women as part of the setting or background for his world. So, give me _Star Trek_ any day. It’s thoroughly disconcerting to read a book where, for the most part, one’s entire gender is just not there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/118 "2013-06-14T01:10:00Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > Ensign Pippin, lay in a course for the Gondor, Warp Factor Seven. One does not simply lay in a course for Gondor. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/119 "2013-06-14T03:17:59Z")
How would[this](http://youtu.be/AGF5ROpjRAU)be affected by the outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/120 "2013-06-14T10:00:59Z")
> [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](#): > > I would eliminate _Lord of the Rings_, on the grounds that _Star Trek_ presents a far superior array of female characters. > > I’m not just talking about female main characters, though _Star Trek_ obviously wins on those grounds. There are vastly more female main characters-- we have Uhura, Crusher, Troy, Kira, Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax, Janeway, B’Elanna, Kes, and Seven of Nine. In _Lord of the Rings_, we just have Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. Not only are there far fewer female characters in _Lord of the Rings_, they are also far less central to the plot and receive far less “screen time,” as it were, than the main male characters. > > _Star Trek_ admittedly did not start out strong with female characters in the Original Series or even in the Next Generation, but to that I say that (1) the point of this exercise is to compare all of _Star Trek_ to all of _Lord of the Rings_; (2) In _Star Trek_, Uhura appears in every episode (or almost every episode), and is more central to the plot and holds a great position of power and responsibility than can be said for any of the _Lord of the Rings_ women, and (3) _Star Trek_ may have started slow but it did get better. > > But, what _Lord of the Rings_ really lacks are the sort of peripheral female characters you’d expect to show up tangentally and in the normal course of things. You’d expect to see the odd wife, mother, sister, or daughter. But, apart from the characters named above, you just don’t. Tolkien may have given relatively little attention to female main characters, but he seems to have given absolutely no thought to women as part of the setting or background for his world. > > So, give me _Star Trek_ any day. It’s thoroughly disconcerting to read a book where, for the most part, one’s entire gender is just not there. It’s the complete works of Tolkien, not just LoTR- the Silmarillon includes a lot more female characters- most notably Luthien, but also a lot of female Valar, Maia, elves and humans, both minor and major characters. Of course, the only female mentioned in the Hobbit is Bilbo’s dead mother, so that doesn’t add much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=7)