# Either Star Trek or Middle-earth is to be removed from history. Y'all choose **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677 "2013-06-10T23:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/121 "2013-06-14T12:46:17Z")
Let’s not forget forget Lobelia Sackville-Baggins! ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/122 "2013-06-14T19:55:08Z")
This is a difficult choice, but the approach I took was more of the series of influence it had rather than how much I like it. Right at it’s core, comparing directly Tolkien to Star Trek, though I am a fan of the former, Star Trek is not only something I enjoy more but has more to work with and has a particularly unique niche in it’s genre. But, that’s exactly why I think Star Trek is ultimately something we can do without moreso than Tolkien. There’s a lot of work like what Tolkien did precisely because his work was so highly influential that his work is essentially the definition of high fantasy, where as great as Star Trek is, it is “only” one of the great Science Fiction franchises. Or to put it another way, as a metal fan, Tolkien is to high fantasy like Black Sabbath is to metal, whereas Star Trek is to SciFi more akin to one of the “big four” like Metallica. And, much like those, even if you like the big four more, you’d be a fool not to realize how indispensible Black Sabbath is. Literally, the influence of Tolkien is difficult to overstate. Virtually every modern work in the genre borrows significantly from his work, he’s affected so much other work in other genres, including fine arts and music. Hell, I could name a dozen bands off the top of my head that have their names or multiple songs relating directly to Tolkien’s work, but I can’t think of one that ties in to Star Trek. And, it’s influence, it has played a huge part in Western Culture as a whole and countless people working in other fields, like politics and science have been inspired by his work for multiple generations now. That’s not to say that Star Trek hasn’t had widespread influence, and it does get some credit for things that Tolkien’s work doesn’t do, like inspiring modern technology like cell phones and tablets. I also give Star Trek credit for it’s generally more Utopian approach to the future, it’s very much the sort of future that I think many people would like to bring about, so it does give us hope in a way that many other SciFi or fantasy franchises don’t, but it just hasn’t had the breadth of influence. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/123 "2013-06-14T21:24:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I swear by all that’s unholy, **Skald** , that if you hop into that continua buggy to take out EITHER of your potential targets, I will be your anti-Clara Oswin Oswald and leap into the timestream myself, shattering into infinite echoes of myself to thwart your every attempt throughout spacetime. Be warned… > > On the other hand, there’s this guy from Modesto, California, I could suggest as a compromise target, circa 1975. He made a little movie about 1950s teenagers and cars…you probably haven’t heard of it. Go…no, go now. As others have observed, the continua buggy was never going to be involved in the operation. Too much risk of running into 2014!Skald and getting into a slapfight. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/124 "2013-06-15T00:01:52Z")
> [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](#): > > I’m not just talking about female main characters, though _Star Trek_ obviously wins on those grounds. There are vastly more female main characters-- we have Uhura, Crusher, Troy, Kira, Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax, Janeway, B’Elanna, Kes, and Seven of Nine. In _Lord of the Rings_, we just have Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. Not only are there far fewer female characters in _Lord of the Rings_, they are also far less central to the plot and receive far less “screen time,” as it were, than the main male characters. And Arwen, IIRC, never gets a single line of dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/125 "2013-06-15T00:04:05Z")
> [@Quercus\_alba](#): > > How would[this](http://youtu.be/AGF5ROpjRAU)be affected by the outcome? Gone in either timeline under discussion, thank Og, Eru, and the Great Bird. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/126 "2013-06-15T02:59:21Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The hobbits die! > > Of course, Evil being Evil we can’t pick some from column A and some from Column B, because I’d love to see Voyager, Enterprise, ST - V and Season 1 of TNG disappear. But the rest is too important, so bye-bye to Middle Earth. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How do you get rid of Season 1 of TNG without getting rid of the rest of it? This raises the question (for me, at least): If LOTR is gone, does _Sword of Shannara_ still exist? I guess it all comes down to: _Which deletion is more likely to remove Piers Anthony from [del]our literary timeline[/del] the list of books that have ever been published?_ ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/127 "2013-06-15T03:03:05Z")
I voted the “…obviously bluffing, and obviously NOT a Vulcan” option. Also, he’s obviously not a golfer. I vote to remove Twilight and True Blood. Terrible writing and manipulation of supernatural classics. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/128 "2013-06-15T06:03:18Z")
We are still living in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth. Hasn’t anyone studied history? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/129 "2013-06-15T14:24:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Romantic as opposed to Enlightenment/Rationalist,](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RomanticismVersusEnlightenment) that’s how. Or [Despotic vs Populist?](http://www.salon.com/1999/06/15/brin_main/) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/130 "2013-06-15T15:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=Filbert] In Lord of the Rings, we just have Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. [/QUOTE] > [@Bozuit](#): > > Let’s not forget forget Lobelia Sackville-Baggins! Rosie Cotton. Goldberry. Ioreth. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/131 "2013-06-18T17:54:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I love both Middle-earth and _Star Trek_ very, very much, and would hate to lose either. But **Skald** says I must choose - Sophie didn’t have it so hard! - so choose I must. Think think think. I guess… I’d lose Middle-earth. > > And then reconsider my stance on suicide. How would you explain your handle here? “Whut’s ‘Elendil’?” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/132 "2013-06-18T19:51:06Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > We are still living in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth. Hasn’t anyone studied history? No, we’re not. Somewhere in Letters, Tolkien states that it’s the sixth or seventh Age by now. If I recall aright, the Fourth Age would have ended either with the creation of the nation of Israel, the fifth with the birth of Christ, and the sixth with World War II and the atomic bomb (i.e., with the Second Children of Iluvatur gaining the power to destroy themselves without supernatural assistance). I suspect Tolkien would have said that, while he was uncertain how long the current Age would last, it’d be the last regardless. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/133 "2013-06-18T21:38:33Z")
I like Star Trek, especially with its vision of a united Earth and moral code of exploration. But Tolkien’s work has affected my life for over 50 years. My parents read the Hobbit to me and in turn I’ve read it to children of friends. It’s a classic book for this - a climax at the end of each chapter; vivid imagination, songs + poetry and honest companionship. Like many others I reread The Lord of the Rings at regular intervals. I thought Peter Jackson did a superb job on the films (with the same attention to detail that Tolkien had), especially with music, locations and costumes. And I’ve played Dungeons and Dragons since 1979 - with a game currently running here. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/134 "2013-06-18T23:43:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or [Despotic vs Populist?](http://www.salon.com/1999/06/15/brin_main/) Is there really any difference between [populism](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Populism) (not at all the same thing as democracy) and despotism? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/135 "2013-06-19T01:42:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or [Despotic vs Populist?](http://www.salon.com/1999/06/15/brin_main/) Also by David Brin: [“J.R.R. Tolkien — enemy of progress”](http://www.salon.com/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/) ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/136 "2013-06-19T04:22:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I swear by all that’s unholy, **Skald** , that if you hop into that continua buggy to take out EITHER of your potential targets, I will be your anti-Clara Oswin Oswald and leap into the timestream myself, shattering into infinite echoes of myself to thwart your every attempt throughout spacetime. Be warned… > > On the other hand, there’s this guy from Modesto, California, I could suggest as a compromise target, circa 1975. He made a little movie about 1950s teenagers and cars…you probably haven’t heard of it. Go…no, go now. : steals TARDIS, goes back in time, and nukes **Skald** ’s grandpa from orbit(the only way to be sure there’s no choice) : ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/137 "2013-06-19T05:03:48Z")
After [seeing this pic of Kirk leaning on a sportscar](http://i.imgur.com/WFlKYK5.jpg), the choice is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/138 "2013-06-19T08:37:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Rosie Cotton. Goldberry. Ioreth. I was only listing ‘main’ characters, in response to **F.Pu-du-he-pa-as** , there are quite a few more minor characters- Mrs Maggot, Mrs Cotton and Elanor to name a few more. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And Arwen, IIRC, never gets a single line of dialogue. She does- she has a conversation with Frodo, though not until the chapter ‘Many Partings’, after the wedding. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/139 "2013-06-19T13:33:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is there really any difference between [populism](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Populism) (not at all the same thing as democracy) and despotism? I think there’s a tendency to look at some recent populist movements (Tea Party, European Right etc) and overlook that it’s not a political slant in itself so much as it is a _style_ which can equally attach itself to fascist, socialist or liberal democratic causes. It’s not the same thing as democracy, agreed, but it’s not inherently antagonistic to it, the way despotism necessarily and essentially is. But yes, it _is_ very different from despotism. The central issue, IMO and Brin’s as well, is where you stand on elites. Despotism is all in favour of rule by elites, it’s central to the ideology, whereas populism, as even [Albertazzi and McDonnell](http://www.palgrave.com/PDFs/023001349X.pdf) acknowledge, is generally specifically framed as anti-elitist. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677/140 "2013-06-19T13:54:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Also by David Brin: [“J.R.R. Tolkien — enemy of progress”](http://www.salon.com/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/) I prefer [Moorcock](http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953) and [Mieville’s](http://steampunkopera.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/china-mieville-perdido-street-station-the-scar-and-rage-against-tolkien/) takes on things, although there’s considerable overlap. And I say this as someone who has a soft spot for the bucolic Merrye Englande fantasy Moorcock especially rails against, like _Willows_ and _Watership_. I just view them as whimsical artefacts of a benighted age. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/either-star-trek-or-middle-earth-is-to-be-removed-from-history-yall-choose/660677.md?page=8)