# Elbows, Come on down and finish this off. (weird guy at gym thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452 "2011-09-07T01:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/241 "2011-09-12T14:57:20Z")
I am not being disingenuous. Hentor asserted multiple times that he didn’t follow her; in fact he did follow her. Lynn asserted (and I agree) based on social norms that her moving away from him in the first place was likely an attempt to disengage with him, although obviously we can’t know for certain. I know that if I politely moved away from someone at a gym it would be because I didn’t want to talk to them any more. I don’t know what’s so difficult about this. She moved away from him and he followed her. You can argue about the implications of that but you can’t just assert over and over that it didn’t happen, as if that will magically make it not have happened. ETA: I do think the fact that most men in this thread are (possibly unconsciously) skipping over his following her to the next machine, while women tend to be picking up on it, is an excellent illustration of the difference between the genders in trained awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/242 "2011-09-12T15:09:49Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > ETA: I do think the fact that most men in this thread are (possibly unconsciously) skipping over his following her to the next machine, while women tend to be picking up on it, is an excellent illustration of the difference between the genders in trained awareness. I find the fact that a couple of women in this thread continue to assert that something happened that is completely at odds with the information presented to be very revealing. I wish, that as an alternative to the Ignore feature, there was an Arsehole feature. When you tagged someone with Arsehole status, their thread text would all appear in brown. That way, rather than having big glaring gaps in threads, you could be reminded right away that a given poster isn’t really worth dealing with, while still being able to skim over their bullshit offering. It would also do away with the troubling experience of struggling to resolve why someone you misremembered as being worthwhile would say something so stupid. “Oh yeah, it wasn’t XYZ123 who says meaningful things, its 456XYZ!” It would save a lot of time. ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/243 "2011-09-12T15:11:49Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > ``` > I am not being disingenuous. Hentor asserted multiple times that he didn't follow her; in fact he did follow her. Lynn asserted (and I agree) based on social norms that her moving away from him in the first place was likely an attempt to disengage with him, although obviously we can't know for certain. > > ``` > > I know that if I politely moved away from someone at a gym it would be because I didn’t want to talk to them any more. I don’t know what’s so difficult about this. \*\*She moved away from him and he followed her. \*\*You can argue about the implications of that but you can’t just assert over and over that it didn’t happen, as if that will magically make it not have happened Your interpretation doesn’t quote click for me, but perhaps I am misunderstanding the original story. He spoke to her and then used a machine near her. (i.e. the following) **When she moved away, he did not follow.** It seems that if we attribute ‘follow’ to the first situation, a person exchanging communication with another person and then settling near this person as ‘following’ that person that we are then making stalkers out of a huge segment of the population, me included. I’ve nodded, said ‘hey, how you doing’ and then **sat down in a nearby table to that person** , so I **must** be following that person? We can say ‘the poster used this word, case closed!!’ or we can say ‘hey, that’s just the word used, let’s look at the situation.’ _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/244 "2011-09-12T15:18:46Z")
Thanks [QUOTE=Weedy] He started talking to a girl as she walked up to the machine next to mine. She replied to him, then he followed her over to the machine, and continued talking to her as she began her workout. [/QUOTE] The way I read this was: Girl approaches machine but does not reach it (hence “as she walked up to”). Man says something to her. Girl says something to man and then moves away (past him?) to the machine. Man follows her to machine and continues talking to her while not working out himself. So yes, there was a point where she moved away from him and he followed her. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/245 "2011-09-12T16:08:40Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > ETA: I do think the fact that most men in this thread are (possibly unconsciously) skipping over his following her to the next machine, while women tend to be picking up on it, is an excellent illustration of the difference between the genders in trained awareness. He continued talking to her as she moved. When she deliberately moved away from him, he didn’t follow. There is nothing wrong with following someone in this situation - that is, whilst engaged in conversation with them - when there’s been no sign that the conversation is unwelcome. Look, people aren’t psychic (not even those who claim to have a spidey sense), and until such point as someone makes it clear that their conversation is unwanted, talking to them is not a problem. In the situation in the original OP, the guy stopped talking to her when he realised she wasn’t interested - no problem. If someone is unwilling to make it clear they don’t want a conversation to continue, especially in a public situation like this, that is solely their problem, not the problem of the person talking to her. ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/246 "2011-09-12T16:25:33Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > The way I read this was: > > Girl approaches machine but does not reach it (hence “as she walked up to”). Man says something to her. Girl says something to man and then moves away (past him?) to the machine. Man follows her to machine and continues talking to her while not working out himself. So yes, there was a point where she moved away from him and he followed her. Okay. (I sat and re-read and re-imagined several times.) I understand your interpretation. 🙂 Put myself in her shoes a bit. Yet, I can’t help but go back to the other side as well, _on his end,_ he is just a human being who chatted with another human and then chose to work out near her. Also, it feels like we are exaggerating his actions and exaggerating what happened. For example, they could have been standing a foot away from the work out machines. I mean, the machines they chose could have been the closest and most logical place to go But this would be an assumption that may not accurately describe the situation. Just as the assumption that she walked away _from him_ in the first place with him following. We just don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/247 "2011-09-12T16:27:50Z")
> [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](#): > > We can say ‘the poster used this word, case closed!!’ or we can say ‘hey, that’s just the word used, let’s look at the situation.’ _shrug_ Precisely. To avoid the word-trap apparently associated with nuances of the f-word, I would restate the situation simply by saying that he approached her, but did not pursue her. From what we know of the matter, we cannot even be sure that she rebuffed him, or that there was anything to rebuff. The only two people who know if anything remotely untoward happened are the two of them. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/248 "2011-09-12T16:33:32Z")
I appreciate your conceding that it’s possible to disagree on the interpretation of the scene as presented without being disingenuous or lying. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/249 "2011-09-12T16:39:28Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I appreciate your conceding that it’s possible to disagree on the interpretation of the scene as presented without being disingenuous or lying. Ugh. Just stop; you’re starting to sicken me. In fact, this is me getting up and moving to another station. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/250 "2011-09-12T21:34:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I find the fact that a couple of women in this thread continue to assert that something happened that is completely at odds with the information presented to be very revealing. > > I wish, that as an alternative to the Ignore feature, there was an Arsehole feature. When you tagged someone with Arsehole status, their thread text would all appear in brown. That way, rather than having big glaring gaps in threads, you could be reminded right away that a given poster isn’t really worth dealing with, while still being able to skim over their bullshit offering. It would also do away with the troubling experience of struggling to resolve why someone you misremembered as being worthwhile would say something so stupid. “Oh yeah, it wasn’t XYZ123 who says meaningful things, its 456XYZ!” It would save a lot of time. Im not a woman. And um, wow. Otara ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/251 "2011-09-12T21:36:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I find the fact that a couple of women in this thread continue to assert that something happened that is completely at odds with the information presented to be very revealing. Revealing of what? I honestly have no idea what you are trying to get at here. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/252 "2011-09-12T22:09:39Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Revealing of what? I honestly have no idea what you are trying to get at here. It’s a parody of the quote I was responding to. It reveals nothing more than that a couple of women persist in adding content to their description of this situation. Drawing broader implications about gender differences would be stupid and offensive, wouldn’t it? Of course, it also highlights individual differences in bias, which makes spidey sense fallible - more so for some than others. It raises questions in regards to elbows description of spidey sense as a universal female trait. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/253 "2011-09-12T22:10:40Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > Im not a woman. > > And um, wow. > > Otara Wow, what? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/254 "2011-09-12T23:36:18Z")
> [@](#): > > description of spidey sense as a universal female trait. Wow, again. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/255 "2011-09-13T00:04:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Wow, again. > [@elbows](#): > > [Female spidey sense, explained for the gentlemen](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14224392&postcount=72); > > Every woman was once a innocent developing young girl. And though her Mom and Dad told her to, ‘take care’, ‘be aware’, etc, etc, she’s just learning to move freely and independently in the world at 12yrs of age. > > She climbs into an elevator, one day, with a man who smiles at her, and seems no more threatening, than her own Dad. She smiles back. When the doors close the conversation starts and it’s all innocent enough until he gropes her. She jumps back, exits the elevator and loses a little innocence. It will be some time before she just smiles back at someone. She won’t tell anyone because, well, teenagers are cruel, and her parents may limit her freedom and independence, as a result. So she just takes the lesson on board and moves on wiser and more aware. (If you don’t believe this happens to every woman, ask the one sitting next to you. Ask her how many people she told, while you’re at it.) > > She is more cautious, but, with each passing day she moves back to that smiling innocent. Then she’s on a crowded bus one day, she sees a fellow get on who makes immediate eye contact with her and smiles, she breaks eye contact and her spidey sense tingles. But now she’s an idealistic 16 yr old, and he hasn’t done anything. She doesn’t want to become like her horrible neighbour who thinks all Latinos are criminals, or her Auntie who doesn’t like Cubans because she was once mugged by one. She tells herself, he hasn’t done anything, actionable or overt. So she overrides her own spidey sense with her idealist sense of fairness, as he makes his way to the seat beside her. And then, he starts rubbing up against her, she jumps from her seat and exits the bus. And again she tells no one, because she feels such a fool. She didn’t trust her own instinct, she feels complicit. > > If this is your daughter (and by the way, it’s all your daughters, sorry to tell you!) what do you want her to do when her spidey sense goes off next? Get into that elevator? Look the other way because she’s not the intended victim? > > Women develop spidey sense from life experiences as young girls. If you’d like to stop it work on the man side instead of the women who have been groped. Yes, wow what? (again) Are you suggesting that you weren’t claiming that spidey sense was a universal female trait? You sure seemed to be suggesting that it was here. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/256 "2011-09-13T02:42:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes, wow what? (again) > > Are you suggesting that you weren’t claiming that spidey sense was a universal female trait? You sure seemed to be suggesting that it was here. If she is, it isn’t true. Actually none of what you quoted there is universally true. Some of us females haven’t been groped, maybe because we are too ugly for it, maybe because we didn’t need anyone else to take care of us. I may decide that something/one is “off”, but it isn’t spidey sense fercrissakes, it’s the result of observation and experience. And I don’t go tattling to anyone about it either. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/257 "2011-09-13T10:20:17Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes, wow what? (again) > > Are you suggesting that you weren’t claiming that spidey sense was a universal female trait? You sure seemed to be suggesting that it was here. She was initially doing just that. That is what I called her out on; she retreated from that position (to her credit) and moved the goalposts (not so much). **Second Judith** , For the last time, the factual chain of events as reported by **Weedy** were as follows: Guy chats briefly with girl Girl replies to him Both move to a nearby station Guy continues conversation _Girl (may or may not have replied)_ Unknown, OP unclear Girl gets up and moves off down the line Guy does not follow and returns to his weights. ANYTHING past this is fictional or added on by telephone process in the OT or over the course of this one. It is clear that he followed once only to a nearby station and when she moved away, for whatever reason, he did not follow or persist. Whatever was exchanged between them is unknown and we only have **Weedy’s** interpretation of vague variables like facial expressions read from a distance and her opinion of ages to extrapolate anything from. None of that is even remotely enough to draw a logical conclusion from. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/258 "2011-09-13T12:05:07Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > **elbows** , can you please start including which poster you are quoting when you quote someone? It makes it much easier for the reader to follow the conversation that way. > [@elbows](#): > > Wow, again. Hey, you’ve been asked once before so I’ll say it louder, _ **please include who you are quoting.** _ ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/259 "2011-09-13T12:57:09Z")
**Turek**! **x-ray vision**! Use your spidey sense! ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/260 "2011-09-17T05:37:15Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > As someone who participated in that thread and agreed that Creepy Guy’s behavior was creepy, I just want to point out that “pervert” is only one possible subset of “creep”. If I say someone is acting creepy, I don’t necessarily mean they’re a big ol’ perv. I just mean they’re, y’know, creepy. _Maybe_ they’re a perv. Maybe they just have no sense of appropriate boundaries. Maybe they just don’t know when to back off. I don’t know. All I know is, the behavior is creepy. > [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Fair enough. “Creepy” is usually associated with ill intentions in my experience. Perhaps its usage is broader than I had thought. In my circle creep/creepy is reserved almost exclusively for pervs. Anyone can be creepy, including women and kids. The word you’re looking for Acid Lamp is “[rapey](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rapey)”. As in “Betty, are you sure you want to go to the bar with Phil? He seems kind of rapey.” Now, I’ve never been groped in public, but as one poster in a recent thread insisted, women can be groped and not even know it. So maybe I have. Oooooo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452.md?page=12)