# Elbows, Come on down and finish this off. (weird guy at gym thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452 "2011-09-07T01:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/141 "2011-09-08T13:25:46Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > No, a [spidey-sense](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man's_powers_and_equipment) is an ability that Spider-Man possesses. So not only did you not understand the metaphor, you still can’t grasp the concept after explained to you? Bless your heart. “Spidey sense” is more descriptive than just saying intuition. Are people really unaware of how the brain, memory and perception works? Studies have shown that even with simple tasks, the brain appears to have made decisions before we are even aware of them. This is not reflexes, BTW, it’s what we previously thought was rational, conscious decision making. As I recall, studies on prosthetic/robotic devises are now using this information. How do you think people can function in sports or any profession in which “snap decisions” are required? Do you think humans would have made it this far if we were not able to sense something is wrong before they are consciously aware of the threat? In fact, even with involved decision-making, many people who claim they’re working on “intuition” or a “hunch” are actually making a decision based on several experiences in which they may or may not remember very well. I use these “hunches” all the time and I do research. Many times what you think is a novel idea is actually a “hunch” based on prior, ‘forgotten’ information. This is also the case when people accuse someone else of stealing their ideas and the accused thinks they honestly thought of the idea themselves, when they may have simply forgotten that they got the idea from someone else. And why the contradictory opinions within posts ( **Sateryn** , for example)? If someone has been groped, they learn from the experience and act accordingly (as they should). Those behavioral changes include being more aware of their surroundings and displaying confidence; precisely what has been stated by **Sateryn**. Doesn’t that mean that we are agreeing? This is not irrational fear, its common sense. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/142 "2011-09-08T13:32:39Z")
Another thing. Some people are not reading the OP that spawned this pit thread. A key factor in that OP was that the girls receiving the shoulder bump and intrusive chatting appeared to be uncomfortable. That seemed to make a big difference to the OP. Very reasonable, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/143 "2011-09-08T13:37:36Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Coincidentally, this article just ran in the local news today: [Man Seen Taking Pictures Near School](http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2011/09/07/marysville-man-seen-taking-pictures-near-school.html) > > I actually thought of this thread when I read it. Summary: Some kids saw a guy snapping some photos of some girls walking home from school. They reported it (to school management or the cops, I’m not sure) and the school sent home a notification for people with a description of the man and his car and a request for people to be alert. > > I’m not providing this as fodder for one side or the other of this argument. I just thought it was an amusing coincidence, considering your hypothetical there. Actually that link is a great example of what I’m talking about. The _facts_ of the case are almost minimal. A couple of students reported a man taking a few photos of some other students as they walked home from the bus stop. He did not talk to them, interact, proposition them, expose himself, threaten etc. He wasn’t being sneaky about it either. the students were able to report the color and type of the camera, so it wasn’t like he was lurking in the bushes. Now that is certainly something unusual, but the media response is almost laughable in it’s fear inducing tones. The police left a mass message on everyone’s machines to report sightings of a “suspected voyuer”. People are afraid to let their children walk to school! What will they have to tell their children?! Cats and dogs are mating! and the sky is going to fall in! OMG WTF BBQ ELEVENTY! All that over one man taking a few snapshots of some students. That type of behaviour is unusual, and good for the students for reporting it, but it is fairly obvious that the police, and community have already made up their minds about this person. The presumption of his innocence has gone out the window; and even if they find him and ascertain that whatever he was doing was perfectly innocent and legitimate, there will be a large portion of the community that will insist on believing he’s just a sneaky secret perv. Do you think that the media is going to run a correction? That’s boring news. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/144 "2011-09-08T14:04:41Z")
Perhaps if they were splashing his name all over the media, you’d have a point. But “I read a newspaper article a while ago that said some unknown man might have been pervy.” is not ruining lives. Can you give us some actual cases of someone’s life being significantly altered by a false accusation of being “creepy?” Do any of you guys have solutions for persistant unwanted sexual attention, especially that forced on young people who likely do not have the experience to react assertively? Hell, just the other I got sexually harassed at a bus stop. I’ve had guys rub their crotches on me, expose themselves, grope me, etc. At 30 I know enough to tell them “Stop!” but at 16 all I knew how to do was hope they went away. It’s gross, it’s not acceptable, and there is no place for this behavior in society. But right now, all we have to fight this is our instinct. We don’t want to get assaulted or raped. We don’t even want to harassed or stalked. How, besides “using our senses to inform us about potential dangers and avoiding them” do you expect us to achieve this? It’s not an unreasonable thing to be concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/145 "2011-09-08T14:12:42Z")
Here’s a [good example](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/parents-sue-wal-mart-children-bath-time-photos/story?id=8622696) of the potential damage of misplaced “spidey sense.” Sure, they had their children taken away from them, were put on a sex offender registry, were suspended from work, and racked up thousands of dollars in legal bills, and generally had their lives put through the wringer when they hadn’t done anything wrong. But better safe than sorry, right? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/146 "2011-09-08T14:21:12Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Perhaps if they were splashing his name all over the media, you’d have a point. They don’t need to go that far. The logical response to the report would be to send some officers to look for the guy, and if they cannot find him, to possibly put out an APB for a man matching his description. Remember, according to the students themselves he didn’t do anything creepy, threatening, or illegal. They just thought it was odd and reported it as they have been taught to do. There is no reason to make it public, whip the town into a perv-induced frenzy, and most likely NEVER figure out what that guy was doing in the first place. If he is legit, you can be damn sure he isn’t going to call the police to clear it up now. If he’s a creep he knows he’s been pegged and isn’t likely to be so obvious again either. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/147 "2011-09-08T14:29:16Z")
nm i couldn’t care less ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/148 "2011-09-08T15:17:57Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Here’s a [good example](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/parents-sue-wal-mart-children-bath-time-photos/story?id=8622696) of the potential damage of misplaced “spidey sense.” > > Sure, they had their children taken away from them, were put on a sex offender registry, were suspended from work, and racked up thousands of dollars in legal bills, and generally had their lives put through the wringer when they hadn’t done anything wrong. But better safe than sorry, right? So what do you think should happen when people come across explicit (as in, exposed genitals and posing) pictures of kids? What would be your limit to reporting something? Would you have to see pictures of a kid actually getting raped to feel the need to take action? I’m sorry for what happened to this couple, but keeping large libraries of your kids naked that are so explicit they cannot be legally shown to others is pretty risky ground and they had to have known that- especially as school employees. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/149 "2011-09-08T15:22:34Z")
I think taking photos of students is in and of itself creepy behavior. If the guy were just out photographing various things on the street, that would be OK, but specifically photographing students? That’s creepy and weird. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/150 "2011-09-08T15:40:53Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > So not only did you not understand the metaphor, you still can’t grasp the concept after explained to you? Bless your heart. > > “Spidey sense” is more descriptive than just saying intuition. Are people really unaware of how the brain, memory and perception works? Studies have shown that even with simple tasks, the brain appears to have made decisions before we are even aware of them. This is not reflexes, BTW, it’s what we previously thought was rational, conscious decision making. As I recall, studies on prosthetic/robotic devises are now using this information. How do you think people can function in sports or any profession in which “snap decisions” are required? Do you think humans would have made it this far if we were not able to sense something is wrong before they are consciously aware of the threat? > > In fact, even with involved decision-making, many people who claim they’re working on “intuition” or a “hunch” are actually making a decision based on several experiences in which they may or may not remember very well. I use these “hunches” all the time and I do research. Many times what you think is a novel idea is actually a “hunch” based on prior, ‘forgotten’ information. This is also the case when people accuse someone else of stealing their ideas and the accused thinks they honestly thought of the idea themselves, when they may have simply forgotten that they got the idea from someone else. > > And why the contradictory opinions within posts ( **Sateryn** , for example)? If someone has been groped, they learn from the experience and act accordingly (as they should). Those behavioral changes include being more aware of their surroundings and displaying confidence; precisely what has been stated by **Sateryn**. Doesn’t that mean that we are agreeing? This is not irrational fear, its common sense. None of this has the slightest bearing on the accuracy or validity of these experiences. Chicken Little, for instance, made a “snap decision.” Sports announcers have made a cliche out of “I bet he wishes he could have that one back.” People aren’t mocking the concept of intuition. They’re mocking the concept of imbuing it with superpower status and of overlooking its inherent susceptibility to errors based on personal biases and misperceptions. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/151 "2011-09-08T15:46:21Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I think taking photos of students is in and of itself creepy behavior. If the guy were just out photographing various things on the street, that would be OK, but specifically photographing students? That’s creepy and weird. And it’s rude to photograph people without their permission. Assholish behavior always sets off my creepy and weird radar. If that guy had tried this with older students he might have got his camera smashed up. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/152 "2011-09-08T15:58:20Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m sorry for what happened to this couple, but keeping large libraries of your kids naked that are so explicit they cannot be legally shown to others is pretty risky ground and they had to have known that- especially as school employees. The kids were 1, 4, and 5 years old. According to the article, eight out of 144 photos were considered “shocking” by the Wal-Mart photo developer/_Law & Order: SVU_ aficionado because they showed the kids naked (at bath time and shortly after). By that measure, I’m pretty sure there are “kiddie porn” photos of me and my siblings gathering dust in attic boxes. Sadly, the Fotomat employee’s spidey sense wasn’t keen enough to get the authorities involved and get us yanked from the home. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/153 "2011-09-08T16:08:55Z")
In reporting, it wasn’t the employee who over stepped, though. It was the professionals who’s job it is to react, in measure, to the offense. If you have a complaint, shouldn’t it be with them? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/154 "2011-09-08T16:30:26Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > In reporting, it wasn’t the employee who over stepped, though. It was the professionals who’s job it is to react, in measure, to the offense. If you have a complaint, shouldn’t it be with them? I have a problem with the poor judgment and hyper-reactivity shown at all levels of the decision making process. But you are correct that there is a slight mitigation for the employee who is motivated due to a presumed stipulation of his or her employment to make mention of such things. It’s far different than an intrusive busybody taking it upon him or herself to foist unfounded fears on other people unbidden. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/155 "2011-09-08T16:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > slight mitigation for the employee I would disagree with slight. We’re talking WalMart employee vs professionals, trained in such things. More than slight, to my mind anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/156 "2011-09-08T16:38:31Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I would disagree with slight. We’re talking WalMart employee vs professionals, trained in such things. More than slight, to my mind anyway. One does not fully escape culpability just based on having been told to do something, even if they are “just” WalMart employees. Besides which, what training are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/157 "2011-09-08T16:46:28Z")
We’re getting a little far afield from the topic of women miscalibrating their skeevaluatory abilities, but the topic of child sexual abuse provides a pretty compelling example of what happens when hysterical overreactivity is not met with sharp concern. The witch hunts involving claims of child sex rings operating in day cares in the 80s and 90s perfectly illustrates what can go wrong when people and authorities alike rely on their intuition. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/158 "2011-09-08T17:25:33Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > So not only did you not understand the metaphor, you still can’t grasp the concept after explained to you? Bless your heart. > > “Spidey sense” is more descriptive than just saying intuition. Are people really unaware of how the brain, memory and perception works? Studies have shown that even with simple tasks, the brain appears to have made decisions before we are even aware of them. This is not reflexes, BTW, it’s what we previously thought was rational, conscious decision making. As I recall, studies on prosthetic/robotic devises are now using this information. How do you think people can function in sports or any profession in which “snap decisions” are required? Do you think humans would have made it this far if we were not able to sense something is wrong before they are consciously aware of the threat? > > In fact, even with involved decision-making, many people who claim they’re working on “intuition” or a “hunch” are actually making a decision based on several experiences in which they may or may not remember very well. I use these “hunches” all the time and I do research. Many times what you think is a novel idea is actually a “hunch” based on prior, ‘forgotten’ information. This is also the case when people accuse someone else of stealing their ideas and the accused thinks they honestly thought of the idea themselves, when they may have simply forgotten that they got the idea from someone else. > > And why the contradictory opinions within posts ( **Sateryn** , for example)? If someone has been groped, they learn from the experience and act accordingly (as they should). Those behavioral changes include being more aware of their surroundings and displaying confidence; precisely what has been stated by **Sateryn**. Doesn’t that mean that we are agreeing? This is not irrational fear, its common sense. Yawn. Reality: If you rely on intuition to make decisions, you won’t make it very far. If all you can provide is “intuition,” people aren’t going to take you seriously, which is kind of why I’m not taking your post very seriously. Sheesh. I can just imagine going to a work meeting and telling a group of people that we should do something because my instincts told me. I guarantee that if I did that, I would lose my credibility. It’s funny how you think I’m the one who is not grasping the concept. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/159 "2011-09-08T17:42:05Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I’d really like to know who said anything remotely implying such a thing, in this thread? Can you show us who said any such thing? Sure. > [@elbows](#): > > By drawing on my personal experience and paying attention to my spidey sense. If some man wants to be all butthurt because some woman ‘senses’ something not in evidence, and decides to err on the side of caution, let him. I could care. > [@elbows](#): > > I’m still not getting how it’s a threat to all men, if someone chooses to follow their gut feeling, or spidey sense, and not get in the elevator, or comment on behaviour that made them uneasy. > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > And no woman here has in any way expressed a HYSTERICAL fear of men. It’s all a perfectly rational alertness. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > A spidey sense is actually being vigilant, and noticing things that seem out of place. For instance, a guy who uses an odd way of physically contacting people. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I know how Spiderman uses the term. However, when I use it, I mean that I can tell that a person or situation is not a normal person or situation, and that’s how I’ve been interpreting other people using it, too. > > I’ve been bitten by spiders, but as far as I know, not radioactive ones. > [@elbows](#): > > I have managed risk very well in my life, in places and circumstance wild and varied. I don’t have any problem with using my spidey sense to my advantage. Suggesting people actively over ride such feeling seems very odd to me. > [@elbows](#): > > Ditto, when your own spidey sense pings over the undo attention your 6yr old is garnering from that preteen boy at the playground. After all, he’s not actually done anything, you’ve just got an uncomfortable feeling. Of course, you’ll just leave them together until ‘something’ actually happens. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Assholish behavior always sets off my creepy and weird radar. If that guy had tried this with older students he might have got his camera smashed up. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452/160 "2011-09-08T18:01:42Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Another thing. Some people are not reading the OP that spawned this pit thread. A key factor in that OP was that the girls receiving the shoulder bump and intrusive chatting appeared to be uncomfortable. That seemed to make a big difference to the OP. Very reasonable, I think. Then _they_ should be the ones complaining to management, not someone who merely saw something and interpreted it the way she wanted to! There are two very serious things wrong with what the OP wants to do. One is above - she is acting on less information than she should have and almost completely on emotion. The other is that she is helping society to teach these girls that they are helpless in these sorts of situations and must depend on someone else to get them out. If the OP simply has to do something, she can talk to these girls and if they seem freaked out, let them know that they can talk to management. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-come-on-down-and-finish-this-off-weird-guy-at-gym-thread/595452.md?page=9)