# Elbows on the table: why rude? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 20, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882 "2006-12-20T04:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/1 "2006-12-20T04:09:01Z")
Most of us have been chastised at one time or another, by parents or meddlesome friends or whomever, for resting our elbows on the dinner table. It’s rude, they say. People with good manners don’t do that. Okay, fine. But why? Who says? Where did this originate? Is this a mists-of-time thing that’s just held on for years and years, an arbitrary behavior by which the upper crust can separate themselves from the unwashed, like having separate forks for salad and entree? Or is it a relatively recently invented transgression without either meaning or history, like the admonition against ending a sentence with a preposition? Yes, I know, we are free to observe or ignore behavioral codes like this, based on our social circle. My question is not whether or not putting one’s elbows on the table _is actually_ rude; my question is, who asserted this, and how long ago? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/2 "2006-12-20T04:11:07Z")
Perhaps because at a crowded dinner table, there wouldn’t be much room, and you’d be knocking things over and jabbing people with your elbows? I dunno, I’m just pulling something out of my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/3 "2006-12-20T04:13:26Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I dunno, I’m just pulling something out of my ass. [/QUOTE] I understand that’s an even _worse_ thing to do at the table. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/4 "2006-12-20T05:09:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I understand that’s an even _worse_ thing to do at the table. [/QUOTE] Only if it involves a dinner roll. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/5 "2006-12-20T05:30:43Z")
Sure, you washed _up to_ your elbows, but did you wash your elbows? What is this, getting mud and grease all over that nice table cloth? And how come you’re hovering over all the food, like someone’s going to steal it from you? And what’s wrong with your posture, that you can’t keep your back straight enough to sit up?.. The elbows-on-the table just _looks_ lazy beyond civilization… Sure, if I had to put up with any nonsense like that, I’d lose my appetite. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/6 "2006-12-20T05:48:05Z")
Just fall back on good Roman manners and vomit after each course. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/7 "2006-12-20T05:55:09Z")
Why is anything rude? I think that many rules that Ms. Manners is asked about are arbitrary at best. Someone somewhere decided it didn’t look right. Manners are supposed to make other people feel more comfortable and if you’re using them as a means to be a snob (I suppose I’m actually talking about the cousin of manners; etiquitte) then you’re showing poor manners in the act of ‘showing’ your good manners. ---
**Author:** ![Aunt\_Flow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed655f/32.png) [@Aunt\_Flow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aunt_Flow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/8 "2006-12-20T07:14:43Z")
I have no idea why, but it’s definately rude enough to have it’s own little song and dance. At least in my neck of the woods it did 😉 ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/9 "2006-12-20T07:20:57Z")
It shows you are too relaxed. Well brought up people are always anal and never put their feet up, burp or crack a smile. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/10 "2006-12-20T11:13:35Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Only if it involves a dinner roll. [/QUOTE] Which greatly simplifies the choice between white and brown. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/11 "2006-12-20T12:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I dunno, I’m just pulling something out of my ass. [/QUOTE] Mmmmmmm, fudge! ---
**Author:** ![Wordworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Wordworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wordworker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/12 "2006-12-20T12:29:33Z")
I feel awkward if I don’t have my arm on the table in some way. I think it comes from some long-ago crack by my step-dad that I looked like a bird when I ate. So now, I try to at least improve matters by resting my arm in front of me, parallel with the edge of the table. Is this considered any less rude? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/13 "2006-12-20T12:54:32Z")
My great-aunt used to relate to me how her aunt would smack her on the hand with a butter knife if she put her elbow(s) on the table. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/14 "2006-12-20T13:54:58Z")
[QUOTE=pool] My great-aunt used to relate to me how her aunt would smack her on the hand with a butter knife if she put her elbow(s) on the table. [/QUOTE] When I was a kid, my grandmother (raised by her Victorian grandparents) used to make me sit on my left hand so that I couldn’t rest my arm - any of it, wrist or elbow - on the table. She also stuck a yardstick down the back of my shirt and put a belt around it and me so I’d sit up straight at the table. When I turned 10 or so, she started muttering under her breath about corsets and girdles, and my mother had to give her a smackdown. (Verbal, of course.) All this from a woman who hasn’t been seen outside of a velour track suit in the last 15 years. :rolleyes: I’m only 33, so it’s going to take a while for the etiquette to die out. I don’t make my kids sit on their hands, but I do tell them to keep their hands in their laps when they’re not actively being used. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/15 "2006-12-20T14:02:58Z")
When anybody in my wife’s large family did anything wrong at the table (like elbows on the table), her mother, who sat at one head of the table, would simply smack whoever was sitting at her left (because that was the only one she could reach). This made all the kids come on time to dinner, because nobody wanted that seat. Oddly enough, when I started dating my wife and sat there, her mother never hit me. I think she liked me. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/16 "2006-12-20T14:04:15Z")
Your elbows are bound to be cleaner and less germy than your hands and wrists. I mean, you don’t literally rub elbows with other people. Or hopefully not. And with your elbows up you probably take up _less_ room at the table, since your hands naturally are further up in the air and not in over the table surface (measurements by NASA engineers have confirmed this). Of course if while you have your elbows up you gesture a lot while talking, you might be more likely to smack a neighbor since more of your arms are waving around. I think the elbows-are-rude thing stems from the idea that one should display as little of one’s body as possible in a Formal Setting, especially a pointy oogly structure like the elbow. However, since with your elbows on the table you display less of your body to others, that should be more polite. Unless it’s rude to conceal the clothed chest, which is a more gracious part of the body, at least in some social settings. I think the whole thing is nuts. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/17 "2006-12-20T14:06:33Z")
According to Miss Manners (page 12, Miss Manners’ Basic Training: Eating: > [@](#): > > The rule actually applies only to people who are engaged in eating. Those who lean forward for conversation between courses or after the meal are not violating the elbow rule, as vigilantes eager to pounce on them gleefully imagine. Near as I can tell, the elbows-off-the-table-while eating rule does exist because it looks bad – if you have your elbow on the table while you are eating, it looks as if you are hunched over your plate "protecting it from predators’ (MIss Manners’ again). ---
**Author:** ![Stout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Stout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/18 "2006-12-20T14:08:12Z")
It’s trestle tables, so I hear. I took a tour of the Tower of London a few years ago, and the tour guide explained that all “these guys” ( I can’t remember who exactly ) used to sit side by side at huge trestle tables to have their meals. Now, apparantly if the guys on one side of the table all rested their elbows on the table, while all the guys on the other side, didn’t, the table was reputed to fall over, scattering food and drink in places that food and drink were not meant to go. My two cents ---
**Author:** ![Baron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@Baron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/19 "2006-12-20T14:39:25Z")
It just seems like such a throwback. I remember being chastized for eating with my left hand by a nitpicking mannermonger. I’m left handed. Did they expect me to drop my food all over the place with my right hand? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882/20 "2006-12-20T14:40:50Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] Which greatly simplifies the choice between white and brown. [/QUOTE] Actually, I expected a comment about an elephant trunk. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table-why-rude/384882.md?page=2)