# Elbows on the Table **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 8, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329 "2004-01-08T01:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Constantine_Coutroulos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/1 "2004-01-08T01:05:08Z")
Does anyone know what idiot ever decided there was anything wrong with putting your elbows on the table? As this practice is not insulting, hazardous or unsanitary and inconveniences no one, and as attempts to stamp it out are usually futile and have caused more human misery than its indulgence ever did, I, for one, think it is well past time for this stupid rule to be laid to rest (by those who haven’t (both of them)). According to one book I consulted, the prohibition only applies when one is actually eating. To this I say that (1) if you are eating with a knife and fork, you will automatically remove your elbows from the table, as it will otherwise be impossible for you to eat unless you have an extra joint between your elbow and your wrist and (2) if you are eating a sandwich or other hand-held food, it is perfectly sensible to eat with your elbows on the table unless the table is so low that doing so would make it uncomfortable – in which case you won’t anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/2 "2004-01-08T01:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Finally, what about those elbows? Always keep your elbows off the table, it’s rude! But why? First thing to bear in mind; back in the old days, people sat down to dinner differently than we do now. It was more like a high school cafeteria, where people squeezed into a long table that was set into a row. This meant that each person was packed very tightly in between the people on either side of him, and simply didn’t have much maneuvering room to eat. The elbows weren’t allowed on the table because if you had an elbow on the table, the only place for it was in the middle of the next person’s plate. It was a courtesy made out of necessity. If someone had their elbows on the table, someone else couldn’t eat. Simple. From [_The History of Etiquette_](http://allsands.com/Lifestyles/historyetiquett_ci_gn.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Constantine_Coutroulos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/3 "2004-01-08T02:20:37Z")
In a case like that, it makes sense–but only in a case like that. Otherwise, forget about it. I for one intend to. There is no sense in making rigid rules out of accommodations to specific situations. (There certainly are many situations in which it is rude to remove all your clothing. There are others in which it is optional, desirable or necessary.) ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/4 "2004-01-08T02:39:03Z")
I can barely remember it, but I think Lucretia Baldridge O.K.'d elbows on the table a while back, and that’s good enough for me. Elbows off the table is not a rule I enforce in my home, but I happen to know through the grapevine that it annoys my M-I-L (an added bonus!). Ms. Baldridge even had some good advice for thanking your one-night-stand. If I recall, it was a heart-felt “Thanks for a lovely evening.” Take note, guys. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Constantine_Coutroulos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/5 "2004-01-08T02:43:41Z")
Nice to see I’m not alone (not that I thought I was). Thanks! And hooray for Lucretia Baldridge! ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/6 "2004-01-08T03:19:35Z")
There are elbows on the table and then there are elbows on the table. If your elbow touches the table while eating a sandwich, it’s probably not too bad. But I have seen people prop themselves up while eating. Imagine this posture: place your left elbow on the table, with your forearm parallel to and along the edge of the table, with your left hand resting on or draped over the edge. Now lean over that arm and put your face over your plate, shoveling food in with a fork in your right hand. Sorry, just looks crass, like you’re feeding at the trough. Etiquette is not always about sheer practicality or about what “makes sense”, by the way. It is a way to establish standard forms of behavior so people are not constantly reinventing the wheel when faced with a common situation. What sense does it make to say “you’re welcome” after having been thanked? Not much, but it’s just the standard phrase for that situation, everybody says it and everybody knows that it’s just a token that means, roughly, “It was very nice of you to express your thanks and I was very happy to do what it was you thanked me for.” ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/7 "2004-01-08T03:21:28Z")
Even Emily Post in 1922 said : “Elbows are universally seen on tables in restaurants, especially when people are lunching or dining at a small table of two or four, and it is impossible to make oneself heard above the music by one’s table companions, and at the same time not be heard at other tables nearby, without leaning far forward. And in leaning forward, a woman’s figure makes a more graceful outline supported on her elbows than doubled forward over her hands in her lap as though in pain! At home, when there is no reason for leaning across the table, there is no reason for elbows.” ---
**Author:** ![Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Constantine_Coutroulos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/8 "2004-01-08T03:22:17Z")
I just checked for Lucretia Baldridge on [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com). I think you mean Letitia Baldridge. (Perhaps you were afraid your M-I-L would poison you?) ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/9 "2004-01-08T06:14:52Z")
[http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/table.html](http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/table.html) Do not play with the table utensils or crumble the bread. **Do not put your elbows on the table,** or sit too far back, or lounge Do not talk loud or boisterously Be cheerful in conduct or conversation Never allow butter, soup or other food to remain on your whiskers Never wear gloves at the table, unlless your hands are for some special reason unfit to be seen. (my comment: Where are those hands, exactly?) Never, when serving others, overload the plate nor force upon them delicacies which they decline. (my comment: see previous quote.) Never make a great display when removing hair, insects or other disagreeable things from your food. Place them quietly under the edge of your plate. (my comment: EWWW!) Rules of Etiquette and Home Culture, 1886 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/10 "2004-01-08T07:26:41Z")
Aha! Place the insects under your _elbows_. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/11 "2004-01-08T07:56:22Z")
Also keep in mind that your elbows might be covered in mud or whatever- especially if your a kid- and could ruin the tablecloth. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/12 "2004-01-08T10:52:55Z")
From _Miss Manners’ Basic Training: Eating_, page 12: > [@](#): > > The rule actually applies only to people who are engaged in eating. Those who lean forward for conversation between courses or after the meal are not violating the elbow rule, as vigilantes eager to pounce on them gleefully imagine. > This does not mean that MIss Manners is lax about the elbows-off-the-table rule for the irrelevant reason that it makes people uncomfortable. What makes her uncomfortable is the now common sight of diners hunched over their plates as if to protect them from predators. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/13 "2004-01-08T11:02:22Z")
How is it possible to eat with you elbows on the table anyway? The only way I can imagine is if the plate was half a metre away from you or you were eating soup. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/14 "2004-01-08T12:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by antechinus \* > \*\*How is it possible to eat with you elbows on the table anyway? \*\* I’ve seen it, but it’s a little difficult to describe. One guy I saw was hunched low over his plate, his elbows on the table roughly parallel with the far edge of the plate, his forearms at right-angles so that his hands nearly met above the point on the plate farthest from him. He was holding his knife and fork so that they pointed more-or-less directly back towards him and, yes, almost shoveling the food in. He looked almost like a dog guarding his feeding bowl, and the posture can’t have helped his digestion much. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/15 "2004-01-08T13:59:40Z")
From my own (rather uptight) British upbringing. No elbows on the table at all. Unless… You could put one on for each time you had met the queen (this is an Army tradition apparently - although it could be a load of cods my Dad made up to allow him to do what he wanted. This is emminently possible). ---
**Author:** ![Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Constantine_Coutroulos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/16 "2004-01-08T22:37:50Z")
After thinking about it, I don’t buy Q.E.D.‘s explanation. If putting one’s elbows on the table means putting it in one’s neighbors’ plates, no sane person is even going to be tempted and will not need a rule to keep him from doing so. Also, if there is no room ON the table for your elbows, there won’t be any room for them OFF the table either. I therefore regard this as a myth. I remain an unrepentant elbow-plopper. CookingWithGas has a point about etiquette not always being rational and simply being a way to establish standard forms of behavior. Saying “please,” thank you," and “you’re welcome” makes people feel good and is not oppressive. However, there are many cases in which cutltural norms (in etiquette and other matters) are oppressive and should be questioned. Some examples that I would like to see go the way of the dodo are: spiked heels, plucked eyebrows and neckties. (After all, Chinese men took only a couple of generations to get used to women with normal feet, didn’t they?) It is also necessary to remember that there are decent people who follow different drummers. Some 3,000 people were murdered a couple of years ago just because some people couldn’t accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Constantine\_Coutroulos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Constantine_Coutroulos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/17 "2004-01-09T01:14:45Z")
Guess I went off the deep end a bit with that last one. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fyodor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/958977/32.png) [@Fyodor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fyodor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/18 "2004-01-09T01:42:05Z")
One of the historical reasons for this prohibition is that elbows on the table make it very difficult for the servants to efficiently handle the serving and setting for the many courses of a formal meal in polite society. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/19 "2004-01-09T01:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WotNot \* > \*\*I’ve seen it, but it’s a little difficult to describe. One guy I saw was hunched low over his plate, his elbows on the table roughly parallel with the far edge of the plate, his forearms at right-angles so that his hands nearly met above the point on the plate farthest from him. He was holding his knife and fork so that they pointed more-or-less directly back towards him and, yes, almost shoveling the food in. He looked almost like a dog guarding his feeding bowl, and the posture can’t have helped his digestion much. \*\* Only place I have seen it is in a western movie, where the cowboy was eating a bowl of beans. It would be very difficult with a typical meat-and-three-veg type meal. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329/20 "2004-01-09T01:48:21Z")
At a business lunch the only time you should put your elbows on the table (known as the EOT maneuver) is when the boss speaks and you want to express great interest. Chew _very_ slowly, and let your lips part slightly. Also clasp your hands as though praying. (To pray means to beg) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbows-on-the-table/223329.md?page=2)