# elBulli restaurant - glorious innovation, or pretentious wank? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2008, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371 "2008-02-20T11:09:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/21 "2008-02-21T20:51:42Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Seriously? That’s one of your examples? [/QUOTE] Heh, well what can I say, I don’t make any attempt to remember the names of restaurants I don’t like. My brother interned at Postrio in the 90s, so I remember Wolfgang. Louis XV was the most expensive meal I’ve had, and La Chaumière was just supremely stupid in that you could clearly see that they were doing nothing that a person couldn’t do at home, and yet because it looked like a 17th century peasant hut, you paid several hundred dollars a person. The only other places I can recall off-hand is the fancy teppanyaki place in Roppongi, Tokyo, and the Chinese restaurant with the 100 year old, sulfurous eggs. …the place where the langoustine attacked my mom. Umm… The one place near Seattle that grows all their own herbs… Four/four and a half star hotel restaurants all around the world. I’m pretty sure I’ve only been to one five star (going by zagat’s ratings I assume. I don’t pay much attention.) The place in Paris with 200 different types of cheese (this wasn’t bland, admitted. But it stunk. And there was nothing else to eat but cheese…) Ahah, found a page of restaurants: [World’s Top 50 Restaurants 2005 - Worldpress.org](http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/2090.cfm) I think I’ve been to Pierre Gagnaire, The Connaught, Le Cinq, and Felix, of those. Perhaps more. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/22 "2008-02-21T20:56:13Z")
Side note: My favorite food in Hong Kong while we were there was Cafe Deco at the top of the mountain. Does anyone know if it is still good? (I was there in July 1994.) ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/23 "2008-02-21T21:26:56Z")
Maybe you’re just picking the wrong restaurants, **Sage Rat** , or maybe your taste buds aren’t the same as most people’s. Or maybe you’re killing your taste buds with cocktails or other strong flavored drinks before the meal? Who knows. I don’t have the Restaurant Resume that you have, but I’ve been to my share of high end places (Joel Rubuchon in Paris (among other highly rated restaurants around Paris/Burgundy/Champagne), Flagstaff House & Frasca in Boulder, CO (started and staffed by ex-French Laundry people), a couple places in Washington DC that were highly rated at the time (7-8 years ago) that I can’t remember the name of at the moment) and although I haven’t always been blown away by the food, the last thing I would describe it as is lacking flavor. Maybe you’re mistaking subtle flavor with lack of flavor? Granted, the sauce on a super-high-end filet of elk is not as in-your-face as a gooey sugary BBQ sauce. But that doesn’t mean it’s bland, either. What I notice most about the flavors at high end places (if it’s GOOD high end) is that the flavors are complex and don’t come through all at once. It doesn’t assault you on the first bite, but it comes through, assuming you don’t just shovel it in or wash it down with a strong flavored drink. You pick up hints of different herbs or spices or other ingredients that play around in your mouth. Sure, you’d get more FLAVOR if you stuck a spoonful ketchup in your mouth. But MORE flavor isn’t necessarily GOOD flavor. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/24 "2008-02-22T03:09:09Z")
I went to a place called [Moto](http://www.motorestaurant.com/flash/index.html) in Chicago that’s in the el Bulli style and, quite frankly, it was worth every penny. All 140,000 of 'em (glad I didn’t have to foot THAT bill…). Highlights: _Crunchy_ mac ‘n’ cheese - the macaroni had been cooked, partially dehydrated, and cooked in with the cheese. Tasted as good as anything I’ve made homemade and the crunchy macaroni just added to it. Cheese snow - soft goat cheese “cooked” in liquid nitrogen. **Literally** melted in the mouth. It made me want to go out and buy nitro when I got home. A slab of fish (forget what kind) “cooked” tableside on a 4" square grill that had been soaked in nitro. Cold pancakes cooked tableside in the same manner, served with the most incredible lychee-based syrup/cream sauce. Dehydrated orange peel torched with a laser (laser = no smoke residue, just orange essence) into an upside-down wine glass, to which wine was later added so you smell the orange along with the wine. Not everything was a hit. The “pizza soup” was a neat idea but, in practice, reminded me of … well, pizza sauce (but the ceasar salad soup with which it was served was freakin’ awesome). The largest main course - BBQ rabbit with scarlet runner beans - had a great presentation (including sage stuffed into the cork-screw fork handles to inhale while eating) but wasn’t much better than something I could have made at home in a crock pot. I enjoyed it simply because it didn’t even resemble home cooking. I like IHOP as much as the next guy but the idea of turning something as simple as a slab of tuna into real, honest-to-goodness art is just too much fun. The presentation and and class of service in a joint like that is simply stellar - and the food is amazing as well. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/25 "2008-02-22T13:08:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Really, I _do_ I mean, on the face of it, I’m greatly impressed by the imagination of some of it, then I’m just annoyed by the fact that it keeps on doing the same thing for ever - I was tired of the ideas and presentation before scrolling to the bottom of the page I linked, but still I can’t dismiss it. So there must be something there. [/QUOTE] I think that this statement kind of proves he _must_ be doing something right as he has been around for ages _and_ has been voted the best chef in the world - they don’t just hand those awards out to anyone I’m sure! I think that anything that pushes the boundaries of an art form can only be a good thing, without innovators you get stagnation. I think it’s the inaccessibility of the food that puts a lot of people off because it’s just so _alien_ but just like Haute Couture fashion a lot of the techniques filter through to everyday life, I only clarify my stock using Heston’s ‘filtration’ method now and am truly considering tenderising a steak for 24 hours in the oven to see if his method works. Places like this are important unless they are emulating the molecular gastronomy style without really thinking about it, i.e. making wacky sounding combinations without actually _thinking_ about how it tastes, that’s why I love Heston - he always explains why he came up with the flavour combinations and it always makes sense, being a lowly commoner I can only imagine as a free table at ‘The Fat duck’ is as rare as rocking horse shit. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/26 "2008-02-22T13:11:32Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Really, I _do_ I’m just annoyed by the fact that it keeps on doing the same thing for ever [/QUOTE] You could say the same about French cuisine no? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Elk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/27 "2008-02-23T16:48:52Z")
I would like the Crunchy Frog, please. No, make that the Spring Surprise, just don,t put any lark vomit on it! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/28 "2008-02-23T22:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=WILLASS] You could say the same about French cuisine no? [/QUOTE] I expect so - it is just a personal opinion, after all. Possibly half or more of my ennui was to do with the plating - unusual food item - OK - unusual food item _nestled in a slot in a thick slate tile_ - Ummm - \*O… K… \*, but then when the next one was equally weird, and the next one, and so on, it stopped being so special and started feeling silly. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/29 "2008-02-23T23:18:16Z")
Foam? People are still doing foam? That’s so turn of the century. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/30 "2008-02-23T23:42:30Z")
[QUOTE=chique] I enjoyed it simply because it didn’t even resemble home cooking. [/QUOTE] Of course the next logical step has been to find ways to use (or modify) these techniques for use in the home, for more everyday foods. I recommend [In Search of Perfection](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Search-Perfection-Heston-Blumenthal/dp/0747584095) by Heston Blumenthal, or the TV show of the same name should you get the chance. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/31 "2008-02-24T00:10:08Z")
I’m always a little bothered by fussy presentation of food. Reminds me of when I was a kid and I played with my food to make little huts and villages of potatoes and corn and stuff. That’s kind of what it always looks like to me–like someone’s been playing with my food. Ick. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/32 "2008-02-24T02:59:05Z")
[QUOTE=chique] I went to a place called [Moto](http://www.motorestaurant.com/flash/index.html) in Chicago that’s in the el Bulli style and, quite frankly, it was worth every penny. All 140,000 of 'em (glad I didn’t have to foot THAT bill…). [/QUOTE] Has the chef gotten his 2000’s Style Steak Ray working yet? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/33 "2008-02-24T03:17:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Bourdain likes to pretend he’s Billy Badass, but no way does he have the balls to call out the most famous chef in the world if he’s thinks he’s full of shit. Bourdain was famous for first dissing Adria as “the foam guy” and then subsequently changing his mind after having ate there. [QUOTE=Sage Rat] I grew up with fancy food, and am of the opinion that it’s Emperor’s New Clothes for the most part. That’s not to say that people who are in to it aren’t detecting something. It is **high quality** food, which can be appreciated as such. It is served in restaurants with **high quality service and atmosphere**. The thing about quality, is that the food needs to be bland for you to be able to detect the core ingredients. Spice and strong flavorings were invented to cover poor quality food. So if you **really appreciate** high quality food items just for themselves, you might like such food. [/quote] No, that’s absolutely wrong. High quality food is not bland, it’s **intense**. The art of fine cooking is to be able to manipulate the ingredients so that they taste more of themselves. To purify and concentrate the flavor so they shine out. That’s been the basis for every great cuisine in history. > [@](#): > > So what you are buying is **quality food and presentation** not flavor. > > Presentation, I’ll go with. I think that this is something they really try to do something fancy with, which can be appreciated. But personally, I think it’d be cheaper to have some Indian food and then go to a museum. Then you get both worlds. > > That the quality of food is high, and the technique to make it high as well, I’ll also agree. The problem is, can anyone actually tell? From what I know, the answer is no. Maybe there’s some small group of people who could tell a difference between different levels of quality of food, but most people aren’t them–and particularly not most of the clientelle of places like this. > > But, if people feel like paying for it anyways… This is not something that necessarily requires a sophisticated palate to understand, good food can be a revelation for even a novice diner because it’s simply the realization that food can taste that good. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/34 "2008-02-24T05:35:07Z")
The trick is that Bourdain has convinced his audience that he is somehow unpretentious. When in fact he’s a French Chef and part of a New York cabal from way back, that invented haute pretention in the 80’s. That’s some jade. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/35 "2008-02-24T05:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Shalmanese] Bourdain was famous for first dissing Adria as “the foam guy” and then subsequently changing his mind after having ate there. [/QUOTE] I believe it was actually “foam dude.” I’ve had some of Adria’s creations – I teach at a culinary school and one of our chefs is an admirer of Adria and learned to make some things. I was unimpressed; it was interesting, but so were Pop Rocks the first time. It wasn’t nearly as good at some of the more straightforwardly excellent food I’ve had. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/36 "2008-02-24T05:50:45Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] The trick is that Bourdain has convinced his audience that he is somehow unpretentious. When in fact he’s a French Chef and part of a New York cabal from way back, that invented haute pretention in the 80’s. That’s some jade. [/QUOTE] :dubious: He named his restaurant after what’s basically a diner in France, and he serves up a similar style of cooking last I checked. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/37 "2008-02-24T11:42:44Z")
[QUOTE=Athena] Maybe you’re just picking the wrong restaurants, **Sage Rat** , or maybe your taste buds aren’t the same as most people’s. Or maybe you’re killing your taste buds with cocktails or other strong flavored drinks before the meal? Who knows. [/QUOTE] I don’t drink, and the restaurants were chosen by my parents (via Zagat’s) given that I was a child. [QUOTE=Shalmanese] No, that’s absolutely wrong. High quality food is not bland, it’s **intense**. The art of fine cooking is to be able to manipulate the ingredients so that they taste more of themselves. To purify and concentrate the flavor so they shine out. That’s been the basis for every great cuisine in history. [/QUOTE] And you don’t believe that that’s [what they say](http://www.wacotrib.com/money/content/shared/money/stories/clark/0706/080125consumer.html) [about wine](http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9849949-39.html)? All I can say is the results of a “14 year taste test” wherein a child, as yet unsullied by the common views of mankind, was given for absolute free food of any degree of quality, and his personal result. Really cheap food does tend to not be as good, but otherwise really most food these days is pretty well made. Kitchens are clean and the produce is fresh thanks to modern refrigeration and shipping, which already cuts out two of the three things that will get you, the third being whether the chef has a good sense of taste and is fanatical of getting it. But if that chef happens to make **barbecue and corn bread** and doesn’t care about interior decoration, he’s never going to think that he can charge $100 for his meal. Barbecue and cornbread isn’t commonly felt to be food that can be perfected, for whatever reason, nor is food which isn’t at least 80% presentation (i.e. making it look cool and interesting on the plate) a candidate for high prices. Neither of those has anything to do with flavor and yet it automatically disqualifies 90% of all food from being “quality food” until popular thought changes. (And I meant 1997 before when asking about Cafe Deco.) ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/38 "2008-02-24T14:18:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] But if that chef happens to make **barbecue and corn bread** and doesn’t care about interior decoration, he’s never going to think that he can charge $100 for his meal. Barbecue and cornbread isn’t commonly felt to be food that can be perfected, for whatever reason, nor is food which isn’t at least 80% presentation (i.e. making it look cool and interesting on the plate) a candidate for high prices. Neither of those has anything to do with flavor and yet it automatically disqualifies 90% of all food from being “quality food” until popular thought changes. [/QUOTE] You’re changing your tune. You said previously that high-end food wasn’t flavorful, and that’s what everyone is calling you on. You’re right on the idea that the chef that’s making plain ol’ BBQ and corn bread is going to have a hard time charging $100/plate for it. But I don’t agree with you that BBQ and corn bread can’t be perfected, or that food has to have presentation to be “quality food.” I’ve had very high quality food that was served on paper plates and cost less than $10. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/39 "2008-02-24T15:52:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] All I can say is the results of a “14 year taste test” wherein a child, as yet unsullied by the common views of mankind, was given for absolute free food of any degree of quality, and his personal result. [/QUOTE] IMO, a child or teenager’s food preferences are typically less reliable than an adult’s. Most people’s palates expand greatly once they get out of their teenage years, and tend to find things intolerably sweet/bland/whatever that they loved when young. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371/40 "2008-02-25T01:55:55Z")
OK, technical question now. How _would_ one actually go about making a spring out of olive oil? What has been done to it to turn what is normally a liquid into a filamentous solid that melts at body temperature? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elbulli-restaurant-glorious-innovation-or-pretentious-wank/438371.md?page=3)