# Electing the Pope, past and present **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515 "2013-02-27T13:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/41 "2013-03-02T09:12:36Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The first western-hemisphere-based cardinal was John McCloskey of New York, appointed in 1875. Since this was after the advent of telegraphs and steamships conclave attendance was not a problem. Actually there was an issue with non-European cardinals missing conclaves due to travel delays. The rules were quite strict about when the conclave started, which left the non-Europeans insufficient time to get there by boat. It came to a head in the conclave of 1922, when 2 US and one Canadian cardinal were too late. The Pope elected by that conclave, Pius XI, changed the rules and allowed non-Europeans more time to get there. The issue was a plot point in the novel “The Cardinal”, which is the only reason I know anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/42 "2013-03-02T13:25:10Z")
What I can’t understand is, if a Holy spirit guides the Cardinals to elect someone to be Pope, it should automatically be an inspitation to all the Cardinals and there would be no discussion, or need for one, each Cardinal would have rhe same person in mind. But since they have to vote on it it seems no different than an election of a Governer, or any politican etc… Just deciding who will keep the tradition going. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/43 "2013-03-02T13:36:55Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What I can’t understand is, if a Holy spirit guides the Cardinals to elect someone to be Pope, it should automatically be an inspitation to all the Cardinals and there would be no discussion, or need for one, each Cardinal would have rhe same person in mind. But since they have to vote on it it seems no different than an election of a Governer, or any politican etc.. Just deciding who will keep the tradition going. We do not have the right to tell the Holy Spirit how it should work – automatically or otherwise. Sometimes it takes a mortal some time, prayer, and meditation to discern what the Holy Spirit wants from him. (Even Jesus stopped to pray in the Bible.) And there may be several candidates with whom the Holy Spirit might be pleased. The Church does not teach that the Holy Spirit dictates all of its actions, but rather that the Holy Spirit will ultimately not let God’s Church be led astray. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/44 "2013-03-02T19:32:12Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What I can’t understand is, if a Holy spirit guides the Cardinals to elect someone to be Pope, it should automatically be an inspitation to all the Cardinals and there would be no discussion, or need for one, each Cardinal would have rhe same person in mind. Inspiration is not possession nor dictation. And it can be ignored and misinterpreted. And there can be allowance for human decision making. E.g., if the Spirit communicates “vote for the guy from Spain named José,” or “vote for the guy you think is best for the church even though he’s not a fellow Italian”; then both would be considered inspiration. The latter allows for a lot more leeway and human agency and culpability. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/45 "2013-03-03T13:17:35Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > We do not have the right to tell the Holy Spirit how it should work – automatically or otherwise. Sometimes it takes a mortal some time, prayer, and meditation to discern what the Holy Spirit wants from him. (Even Jesus stopped to pray in the Bible.) And there may be several candidates with whom the Holy Spirit might be pleased. The Church does not teach that the Holy Spirit dictates all of its actions, but rather that the Holy Spirit will ultimately not let God’s Church be led astray. I guess the Holy spirit was absent when they picked the one Pope who died shortly after he was installed. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/46 "2013-03-03T13:23:33Z")
There was a list of the Popes that was attributed to a Saint Malachy, the list is no longer talked about, for many thought it was a true prophecy, the last one (who would now be passed), should be named Peter. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/47 "2013-03-03T15:00:01Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I guess the Holy spirit was absent when they picked the one Pope who died shortly after he was installed. Or that was the Holy Spirit’s way of saying “C’mon guys, you weren’t listening. Let’s go back and pick again.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/48 "2013-03-03T16:44:00Z")
Just because he was in office for a short time doesn’t mean it was a mistake. John Paul I broke the mould - he was the smiling, pastoral Pope, after the rather dour and sad Paul. He was something of an outsider, not from the Curia. Some have argued that the choice of John Paul I helped the cardinals to think really outside the box the next round and break the Curia/Italian stranglehold on the papacy, leading to the election of the first non-Italian pope in 400 years, John Paul II. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/49 "2013-03-03T18:43:23Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There was a list of the Popes that was attributed to a Saint Malachy, the list is no longer talked about, for many thought it was a true prophecy, the last one (who would now be passed), should be named Peter. If many thought it was true, then why is it no longer talked about? [It is an obvious hoax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes#Popes_1590_to_present_.28post-publication.29) and as predictive of the future as the works of Nostredamus. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/50 "2013-03-03T20:19:05Z")
One of my high school theology teachers (it was a Catholic school) speculated that JP1 might have died because he was about to make an incorrect statement ex cathedra, and so the Holy Spirit had to step in to ensure that the Church would not be led astray. Please note that this was just one guy’s idle speculation, not an official teaching of the Church. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/51 "2013-03-03T20:36:48Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > In [ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS](http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2ordin.htm), Pope John Paul II declared: Overturning a teaching that a Pope has declared to be a fundamental tenet of the faith is not something that can be done on an _ad hoc_ basis. You would need a Pope to do it. And you would need to lay a lot of groundwork explaining why the Church wasn’t really changing its teaching but was really just reaffirming an ancient teaching and why the previous Pope didn’t really say what it sounded like he said. > > JP II went to extremes to make it hard to change the no-girls-allowed rule. Don’t look forward to it happening in your lifetime or the lifetime of any child you will ever live to meet. True, but \*Ordinatio Sacerdotalis \*was not an infallible papal pronouncement. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (then headed by Joseph Razinger) clarified the pronouncement by saying that the teaching that women cannot be ordained as priests is an infallible teaching of the Church itself, since it was always taught and applied by the Church, and John Paul II was just handing on what the Church has always taught. Of course, the CDF cannot pronounce infallibly on anything, so they could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/52 "2013-03-03T20:41:16Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What I can’t understand is, if a Holy spirit guides the Cardinals to elect someone to be Pope, it should automatically be an inspitation to all the Cardinals and there would be no discussion, or need for one, each Cardinal would have rhe same person in mind. But since they have to vote on it it seems no different than an election of a Governer, or any politican etc.. Just deciding who will keep the tradition going. Cardinals are ordinary men who hold an extraordinary office. They’re as weak, sinful, ignorant and venal as anyone else. Of course, we hope they’re also not as weak, sinful, etc., as everone else, and sometimes we might get lucky and that might turn out to be true. But they’re entirely capable of being closed to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or incapable of recognizing it when it’s given to them, or sinfully putting their own ambitions and prejudices ahead of such guidance, and generally of the whole panopoly of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/53 "2013-03-04T13:31:39Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > If many thought it was true, then why is it no longer talked about? > > [It is an obvious hoax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes#Popes_1590_to_present_.28post-publication.29) and as predictive of the future as the works of Nostredamus. I dont believe in Pr0phecy, most are lucky guesses at best, and I have read Nostredamus writings, and one could translate them any way one chooses, many are after the fact, Just lately I heard some on The History channel say Nostredomus also predidted the world would end on Dec. 21st 2012. I copied the list down years ago and the remaining names had already expired.If I can find the list I will put them on a later date. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/54 "2013-03-04T13:33:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One of my high school theology teachers (it was a Catholic school) speculated that JP1 might have died because he was about to make an incorrect statement ex cathedra, and so the Holy Spirit had to step in to ensure that the Church would not be led astray. > > Please note that this was just one guy’s idle speculation, not an official teaching of the Church. The you are saying.that the Holy Spirit didn’t know this ahead of time? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/55 "2013-03-04T14:55:10Z")
Important nitpick: I’m not saying anything at all, I’m just reporting what one of my teachers was saying. And even he wasn’t saying it was true, just speculating that it might be. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/56 "2013-03-04T17:51:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One of my high school theology teachers (it was a Catholic school) speculated that JP1 might have died because he was about to make an incorrect statement ex cathedra, and so the Holy Spirit had to step in to ensure that the Church would not be led astray. > > Please note that this was just one guy’s idle speculation, not an official teaching of the Church. So, one of your teachers was nuts. Next… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/57 "2013-03-04T21:39:03Z")
Funny short YouTube video on how to become Pope - keep an eye out for two Monty Python references: [How to Become Pope - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF8I_r9XT7A) ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515/58 "2013-03-04T23:12:08Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Funny short YouTube video on how to become Pope - keep an eye out for two Monty Python references: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF8I\_r9XT7A](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF8I_r9XT7A) Three if you count the two questions and the name chosen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electing-the-pope-past-and-present/651515.md?page=2)