# Election 2004 is cancelled **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872 "2003-04-15T14:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/21 "2003-04-15T16:17:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scotandrsn \* > \*\* > If it helps, I’ll generalize it: > > An elected official up for re-election who has direct control of polling procedures your voting district announces, citing moderately compelling reasons, that the democratic process must be suspended in favor of the broader interests of the community. > > Remember, we’re just playing “Think about the unthinkable” here. > > What is your PERSONAL reaction? What do you think? what action do you take? > > ESPECIALLY if the official is someone you currently support? \*\* Have the official in question immediately impeached, removed from office, convicted of treason, and sent to prison. You don’t understand much about how coups work, do you? You don’t just announce that you are taking over. You have to have support from the military, or enough of the armed populace, to make your takeover credible. Nobody, either in the military, or in any party, or involved in the government, would support this official in any way. If he issued orders to the National Guard to take over, the orders would be disregarded and he would be arrested. Back during the sixties they used to ask, “What if they gave a war and nobody came?” In this case, it would be, “What if somebody announced that they were imposing a dictatorship, and everybody thought it was stupid and paid no attention beyond having the dictator arrested?” This would not be like the crowning of Charlemagne. It would be more like that guy on State Street announcing that he is the Emperor of the Moon. You can’t become a dictator by fiat. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/22 "2003-04-15T16:23:33Z")
The Trilateral Commision, the Aliens amoung us & the Illuminati would not let their clone of the REAL GW Bush do this. :rolleyes: Fnord. So tell us Scotandrsn- what would YOU do if you woke up one morning as a giant cockroach? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/23 "2003-04-15T16:26:18Z")
Sheesh, **Scot** you’re not having much luck coming up with plausible situations, are you? My question; answer if you wish: why would you think that a President with a greater than 70% approval rating would even want to cancel elections? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/24 "2003-04-15T16:38:03Z")
El: The answer might be that his Dad had 90% approval rating at one point and then lost the next election to a nobody from Arkansas. Not that he’d cancel the election, but that he might not be so secure about his eventual winning. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/25 "2003-04-15T16:47:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Bush would not attempt the italicized term, because the Constitutionalists among his own party – e.g., Orrin Hatch – would be advising him that such a step would lead to widespread protests and result in his immediate impeachment and conviction. > > So assuming the rest of your scenario: there are protests from outraged Democrats and from the majority of Americans who regard the right to vote as important. Notably, the idea that “we can give tax cuts to the rich, but cannot even afford to conduct an election” becomes a big cry. > > States scrape together enough money to conduct their own elections, which will include everything but President and Vice President. Some states conduct elections for the latter – but not enough to provide anyone with an Electoral College majority. > > At noon on January 20, 2005, Bush’s term ends, by law, as does Cheney’s. The Congress has convened on January 3, 2005, again as specified by law, and the House has proceeded to the election of a new President, and the Senate of a Vice-President, again as prescribed by law. One of two scenarios ensues: if they have not chosen a President by 1/20/05, then the Speaker of the House acts as President until they do. Naturally this will make him loath to proceed with the expeditious choice of a President. If they have made a choice, then whoever the House chooses is sworn in as President. It’s entirely plausible that the Democrats could win the House in the ensuing brouhaha about the cancellation of the Presidential elections, and choose the next President (either the Speaker or the man elected by the House). Note that the House’s choice is delimited to the three men who had the highest vote in the election – which means that the states who did conduct Presidential campaigns will effectively choose the President.) > > An effort by House Republicans to extend Bush’s term is attacked as unconstitutional, and fails. \*\* I’ll take this one as progress, thanks for playing, Polycarp! Since you posted regarding my more specific OP, we’ll play on that field for awhile… You are of course correct in assessing that saner minds would prevail, and we would never reach such a situation, but I thank you for providing a scenario. Your post still suffers from “Here’s what would happen…”, but it’s good enough to get started. Now, if you’re willing to keep playing… You haven’t mentioned your particular opinion of Bush, and I won’t make assumptions, but it seems if he were to attack democracy directly, you would want him impeached. Now let’s make it personal… The president gets impeached by the House. Which of North Carolina’s 13 representatives is yours? Would you personally contact them to let them know of your desire to have them vote to impeach? How great is your expectation that they would vote the way you would wish? If the vote to impeach went through, would you contact Elizabeth Dole and John Edwards and tell them you want them to convict? In your opinion as a NC voter, would they? What would you personally do if the vote to impeach failed? The whole point of this is, how much personal responsibilty would you take on if democracy were seriously threatened? I apologize to all for my poor decision to use Bush as the instigator of all this, but I wanted to get real names involved, to get people away from " Here’s what the community/country would do" to "Here’s what I would do. Now is anyone willing to play? Either on the generic playing field or the more specific OP? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/26 "2003-04-15T16:51:17Z")
Scot: If you wanted to get “real names” involved, why did you pick “Shrub”? Failure on your part to see the irony there is what has turned a lot of people off to this thread. Don’t take it personal, though. Just an obvservation on my part. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/27 "2003-04-15T16:58:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Scot: > > If you wanted to get “real names” involved, why did you pick “Shrub”? Failure on your part to see the irony there is what has turned a lot of people off to this thread. Don’t take it personal, though. Just an obvservation on my part. \*\* You are correct, and I have apologized. Care to play? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/28 "2003-04-15T17:16:58Z")
If **Shodan’s** and **Bricker’s** legal or political options don’t work… I’d start burying guns and ammo in bulk. Firearms, anything that blows up I can get my hands on, and MREs would become my new investment portfolio. I won’t live in a dictatorship, unless I visit by choice. **Bricker** and I might even end up in the same militia as I’d be hiding in western Virginia near some mountainous property I’ve got. It’s also not that far from DC.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/29 "2003-04-15T17:33:34Z")
I can’t believe I wasted five minutes of my life reading all the way to the end of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/30 "2003-04-15T17:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The answer might be that his Dad had 90% approval rating at one point and then lost the next election to a nobody from Arkansas. Not that he’d cancel the election, but that he might not be so secure about his eventual winning. Point taken, but maybe the scenario might have worked btter if we postulated Bush trying to stay on past a secdond term. Anyway, the OP has further explained what he was after, so here’s my less-then-stunning contribution: I’d like to think that I’d be highly activist in trying to resist such a hijacking of the electoral process, but chances are I’d weigh how much such a move would really affect me or persons I know. If Bush simply wanted to hold on to power, I have a feeling I wouldn’t do my utmost to resist, as there would be no particular personal effect on my life. If he were to simultaneously start tossing dissidents in prison wholesale, or commissioning the assassinations of opponents, that would be another thing again. My resistance, in any event, would probably start with joining street protests and escalate from there as and if needed. It would probably not start with letters to congresspeople, as the laws on this sort of thing are clear, and IMO either Congress will follow them or they won’t. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/31 "2003-04-15T17:46:42Z")
Here, I’ll put forward a situation like the OP, still outlandish, but perhaps a bit more plausible. I checked my cite, and found I goofed on a fact: According to an article in the LA Times on 3/13/2003, Utah and _Colorado_ have cancelled support of party primaries, while Missouri and five other rebublican-controlled states were considering similar actions. While the Republican primaries in these states, as the article put it, “would be about as suspenseful as a cup of vanilla pudding”, I don’t think anyone can argue that it is also a political move to make it more difficult for other parties to settle on an opposition candidate in those states. So let’s say that sometime next year, these states, all with overwhelming one-party majorities, plead to the US government that they are still suffering money troubles, and the governor would like, just this once, to forego the expense of holding elections and simply go by voter registration and historical election results and assign electors and congress members accordingly without having to go through the tedium of voting in such a one-party state. Let’s pretend (I’m not saying it WOULD happen, but let’s pretend) that the Justice Department, with Bush’s blessing, announces that, given the extraordinary circumstances, will not seek to pressure any of these states into holding elections, and they can assign the offices as proposed. What would you personally want to happen in this situation, and what would you do to make it happen? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/32 "2003-04-15T17:50:22Z")
Look, son. OK, let’s suppose Bush gets a brain tumor and declares himself dictator. There wouldn’t be any particular need for anyone on this message board to take any particular action. The military would refuse to take his orders. He would either be impeached, or declared incapacitated, and Cheney would take over until the next election cycle. The election would proceed as scheduled, Bush announcing that elections are cancelled doesn’t cancel the elections, and Cheney would rescind the order anyway. Republicans frantically distance themselves from Bush, but to no avail. The Republicans would lose big in the election, the Democrats would sweep the House, Senate, and Presidency, probably for the next decade or more. The Republican party would disintigrate, and a couple of successor parties would form, a christian conservative party, a neocon party, maybe a few others. The Reform party and the Libertarian party would suddenly be revived, and have a shot at taking major party status. Which of the four or five new parties eventually steps in to become the major opposition party is up for grabs, but the Democrats will hold on to power for years and years and years and years. Happy now? Oh, and if you insert “Clinton” for “Bush”, just reverse the names of the parties in the second paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/33 "2003-04-15T17:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*If **Shodan’s** and **Bricker’s** legal or political options don’t work… > > I’d start burying guns and ammo in bulk. Firearms, anything that blows up I can get my hands on, and MREs would become my new investment portfolio. I won’t live in a dictatorship, unless I visit by choice. **Bricker** and I might even end up in the same militia as I’d be hiding in western Virginia near some mountainous property I’ve got. It’s also not that far from DC.😉 \*\* Interesting. I’ll take you at your word. What would you do for food, how would you keep tabs on what going on outside of your hiding place, and how many people would be there with you? ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/34 "2003-04-15T17:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\*Point taken, but maybe the scenario might have worked btter if we postulated Bush trying to stay on past a secdond term. > > If Bush simply wanted to hold on to power, I have a feeling I wouldn’t do my utmost to resist, as there would be no particular personal effect on my life. \*\* So your feeling is that the government is more or less irrelevant to you on a practical level, and should be left to do as it pleases? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/35 "2003-04-15T18:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scotandrsn \* > So let’s say that sometime next year, these states, all with overwhelming one-party majorities, plead to the US government that they are still suffering money troubles, and the governor would like, just this once, to forego the expense of holding elections and simply go by voter registration and historical election results and assign electors and congress members accordingly without having to go through the tedium of voting in such a one-party state. > [@](#): > > The United States Constitution and Federal law do not prescribe the method of appointment other than requiring that electors must be appointed on the Tuesday after the first Monday in November (November 7, 2000). In most States, the political parties nominate slates of electors at state conventions or central committee meetings. Then the citizens of each State appoint the electors by popular vote in the state-wide general election. However, State laws on the appointment of electors may vary. > > Under the Constitution, State legislatures have broad powers to direct the process for selecting electors… As long as the scheme selected by the state legislature did not run afoul of the general Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses, the state LEGISLATURE has the power to select presidential electors however they please. I am unaware of any particular federal constitutional decision that would require a state to permit popular voting in the first place. It’s up to the state. If this happened in my state, I’d be outraged, etc., and would act as I specified above. **Beagle** - maybe we can arrange to share hunting duties. 🙂 - Rick ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/36 "2003-04-15T18:47:29Z")
**Ideal situation** The moderate Republicans in Congress wake up and realize George W. Bush is a menace to American society. They (politically) abandon Bush, push for elections to continue as normal, then actively campaign against him and rout Bush out of office. **Not-so-ideal situation** The Democrats in Congress and the American public put up a howl, but the Shrub administration ignores them (as usual). The Republicans in Congress go along with the suspension with sheep-like docility. The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision (the same split that ruled on _Gore v. Bush,_ coincidentally enough) rule that suspending elections is Constitutional, and ignore the legions of legal experts who proceed to poke gaping big holes in the ruling. A large number of Americans decide that the country is going to Hades in a Handbasket, and emigrate out of the country _toot sweet._ ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/37 "2003-04-15T18:53:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*As long as the scheme selected by the state legislature did not run afoul of the general Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses, the state LEGISLATURE has the power to select presidential electors however they please. I am unaware of any particular federal constitutional decision that would require a state to permit popular voting in the first place. It’s up to the state. > > If this happened in my state, I’d be outraged, etc., and would act as I specified above. **Beagle** - maybe we can arrange to share hunting duties. 🙂 > > - Rick \*\* By god, you’re right! Article II, Section I: > [@](#): > > Each state shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress All this time, I had been confusing it with Article I, Section II, regarding who gets to vote for the House of Representatives: > [@](#): > > …and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature My bad again, but even better! Now we know what you would do if it happened in your state. What would you want to do for your fellow Americans if it happened in their state? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/38 "2003-04-15T18:58:51Z")
I would imagine the result would be the breakdown of government and open, armed insurrection. An attempted coup would likely fail miserably. I think a more interesting question is this: **If, somehow, a coup of the U.S. Constitution succeeded, and a sitting President was installed indefinitely and elections suspended, with the support of Congress, most of the apparatus of federal and state governments, and most of the military command, what would you do?** I believe it is virtually certain that _most people would go along with it._ A minority of people would actually resist such a coup. Of course, if, say, 30% of the country violently resists, there would be open rebellion and probably failure of the coup; the pass/fail mark for a coup is way, way above 50%. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/39 "2003-04-15T19:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > So your feeling is that the government is more or less irrelevant to you on a practical level, and should be left to do as it pleases? Oh, please. Look, you asked what I, personally, would do. I have attempted to answer as honestly as I can, _responding directly to your specific, (and frankly, highly flawed) premise_. If you are simply trolling for chances to chastise people over what you deem to be a lack of engagement with government, then look eslewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872/40 "2003-04-15T19:36:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scotandrsn \* > Now we know what you would do if it happened in your state. What would you want to do for your fellow Americans if it happened in their state? Fuck them. They want good representation, let 'em leave their pissant states and come to the mighty Commonwealth of Virginia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2004-is-cancelled/168872.md?page=3)