# Election 2008: Did the Dems Learn from 2004?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 5, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813 "2007-04-05T02:17:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/1 "2007-04-05T02:17:18Z")
_When:_ \*\*Wednesday, November 3, 2004.
\*\*
_Where:_ **All over Blue State USA.
\*\*
_Who:_ \*\* Weeping, Demoralized Democrats.**
> [@](#):
>
> Originally Posted by **Weeping, Demoralized Democrats**
>
> \*Well… _THAT_ sucked. But what the HELL were we thinking? I mean, he looked pretty good on paper–at least at first-- BUT…
>
> …a liberal?\*
>
> …from the Northeast?
>
> …not a governor but a Senator?
>
> …who voted to enable the invasion of Iraq?
> He _was_ a decorated war hero, that at least got us _some_ love from Joe Six-Pack (notwithstanding the SwiftBoaters)…
>
> But still… We REALLY fucked this up. Fucked it up so bad that we couldn’t even beat Dubya Bush! We have GOT to get our shit together and make DAMN SURE we don’t repeat the same mistakes 2008!\*
**Fast-forward to Wednesday, November 5, 2008:**
> [@](#):
>
> Originally Posted by \*\*The Last, Dying Gasps of a Fucked-Up, Non-Lesson-Learning Political Party that is Stuck in the 1960’s \*\*
>
> \*Well… _THAT_ sucked. But what the HELL were we thinking? I mean, she looked pretty good on paper–at least at first-- BUT…
>
> …a liberal?\*
>
> …from the Northeast?
>
> …not a governor but a Senator?
>
> …who voted to enable the invasion of Iraq?
>
> …and a WOMAN?
> At least KERRY _was_ a war hero (notwithstanding the SwiftBoaters) so some Right-Wingers liked him, but Hilliary was almost universally despised by Joe Six-Pack and just about everyone in the Red States!
>
> It’s too late now, but I sure wish we had gone with _Barrack Obama._ True, he’s also a Senator, but at least he’s an
>
> INEXPERIENCED AFRICAN-AMERICAN Senator. **That** would have gained us the necessary crossover votes from conservative voters for SURE!
>
> Oh well… we have GOT to get our shit together and make DAMN SURE we don’t repeat the same mistakes in 2012!
…and so on…
Vilsack or Bayh could have gotten the job done, but they were cowed by the big-money, unelectable mega-stars so they dropped out. There’s only one chance now to elect a Democrat, and at this point the scenario is so obvious that I don’t think I even have to name the man who could get it done.
To sum up: **Hillary Clinton??? Barrack Osama???** I would vote for either one of them over any of the GOP candidates who have entered the race so far, but they **honestly don’t have a shot in hell**.
Someday there will be a first black president, but he (and it _will_ be a he) won’t be a first-term Democratic Senator.
Someday there will be a first female president, but she won’t be a Democratic Senator from the Northeast.
Why do the Democrats hate America? Why do the Democrats hate me? Why do the Democrats hate _themselves_?
\*not really, but successfully portrayed as one.
_Disclaimer for the Offendarati (sp?)_: I have no problem with, and hope to see one day soon, a female and/or a minority President. However, the political reality in the USA is: it’s gonna be a tough, uphill battle to do this at this point in time.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/2 "2007-04-05T03:50:48Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to The BBQ Pit.
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### Author:  [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/3 "2007-04-05T03:57:59Z")
You’ve pretty much summed up why I think the Republicans will win in 2008 if either Clinton or Obama get past the primaries. Unless, you know, a bunch of dead boys shows up in someone’s bed or somthing.
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### Author:  [@Gentle\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gentle_Robot)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/4 "2007-04-05T04:08:07Z")
If all goes well Iowa and New Hampshire (primaries are a FUCKING SHAM) will pick another jackass you’ve never heard of who’s an even bigger loser than either of them.
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### Author:  [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/5 "2007-04-05T05:45:41Z")
I’ve been saying the same thing.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/6 "2007-04-05T05:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=mstay]
You’ve pretty much summed up why I think the Republicans will win in 2008 if either Clinton or Obama get past the primaries. Unless, you know, a bunch of dead boys shows up in someone’s bed or somthing.
[/QUOTE]
Like in Iraq?
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/7 "2007-04-05T06:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=I Love Me, Vol. I]
To sum up: **Hillary Clinton??? Barrack Osama???** I would vote for either one of them over any of the GOP candidates who have entered the race so far, but they **honestly don’t have a shot in hell**.
Someday there will be a first black president, but he (and it _will_ be a he) won’t be a first-term Democratic Senator.
Someday there will be a first female president, but she won’t be a Democratic Senator from the Northeast.
Why do the Democrats hate America? Why do the Democrats hate me? Why do the Democrats hate _themselves_?
[/QUOTE]
Oh for crying out loud! according to polling report: [WH2008: General](http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm) many polls among the big candidates, regarding the question of “if the 2008 general election were held today”, show a statistical tie so far. So much for the “shot in hell”. When I remember that the Republican candidates still support the current president, I have to say that I like the odds so far.
---
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/8 "2007-04-05T06:21:55Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Oh for crying out loud! according to polling report: [WH2008: General](http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm) many polls among the big candidates, regarding the question of “if the 2008 general election were held today”, show a statistical tie so far. So much for the “shot in hell”. When I remember that the Republican candidates still support the current president, I have to say that I like the odds so far.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and Dewey defeated Truman. And Al Gore was going to win handily in 2000. How 'bout that Howard Dean guy, eh? More than a year prior to the election and you’re giving us polls? The word “irrelevant” comes to mind.
I’m inclined to agree with the OP. I think that the only way either of them win the Presidency is if the Republicans nominate the chairman of NAMBLA. Hillary has no chance, she’s too polarizing and I don’t think she can take the middle 20%. Obama, even ignoring the obvious, is still only a first-term Senator. I’d probably vote for the guy depending upon who the Republicans nominate (and that guy better be the best candidate ever at this point if he wants my vote), but I still don’t think Obama can win.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/9 "2007-04-05T06:34:31Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I’m inclined to agree with the OP. I think that the only way either of them win the Presidency is if the Republicans nominate the chairman of NAMBLA.
[/QUOTE]
Do you think if enough of us emailed him some (apparent) support, we might be able to get him to throw his hat in the ring? That’s a necessary first step, you know.
After that, we could just get bigger and bigger clothespins for our noses, as he advances through the process. Then, come July, 2008, when he starts his first post-convention tour, we drop the bombshell,
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/10 "2007-04-05T06:37:45Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Yeah, and Dewey defeated Truman. And Al Gore was going to win handily in 2000. How 'bout that Howard Dean guy, eh? More than a year prior to the election and you’re giving us polls? The word “irrelevant” comes to mind.
[/quote]
Context, I agree with you that they are irrelevant because the OP is irrelevant also for the same reason: it is too early. The reason I brought them in is that they offer some clues and that it is silly to assume this is going to be easy for either party or that “there is no chance in hell”.
I still think that the main Republican candidates, by not distancing from the Bush policies on the war ( **meaning that they will be happy to continue them** ) is a factor that will keep the contest close, and by no means I’m having the illusion this will be an easy election.
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### Author:  [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/11 "2007-04-05T08:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Like in Iraq?
[/QUOTE]
Huh? No. I’m talking about necrophilic pedophilia. You know, an issue that actually matters to the voters.
Anyway, even if the Dems could field a viable candidate (a white Southern moderate non-Catholic man – only model that’s worked in the last 24 years) I’d be hesitant at the idea of them actually overpowering the GOP machinery in the arena of public opinion. They couldn’t beat Bush in 2004 – that’s like striking out in tee ball! If the Republicans actually put forward a semi-popular candidate the Dems are doubly screwed.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/12 "2007-04-05T09:18:27Z")
Well, Bill Richardson is a:
Very Moderate Liberal
Popular Governer
From the South
With a good International Record
But No Military Experience
I would say that in terms of simple batting stats, he would be the best Democratic choice. Personally, I’d be fine with either him or Hillary (as a moderate), and if Giulini ends up as the Republican candidate then moderates will be dancing in the street.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/13 "2007-04-05T11:20:17Z")
I hate to break it to you, but Hillary is not a liberal any more than Bill was. A lot of liberals hate Hillary for her support of the Iraqalypse.
Rewind to 2000: Gore wins popular vote but loses due to an ill-designed ballot in south Florida, giving huge Jewish support to Pat Buchanan.
Now to 2004: The supposedly weak John Kerry nearly wins popular vote and loses due to election fraud in Ohio.
Now to 2006: Democrats sweep to power in both houses of Congress.
I don’t see a lesson to be learned. The Democrats are surging and two narrow fraudulent defeats in the presidential races doesn’t negate that. Iraq changed everything- the Republicans will win in 2008 only with massive electoral fraud and/or the Democratic candidate makes an incredible mistake.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/14 "2007-04-05T11:39:09Z")
Narrow versus **Bush**. That’s pretty weak in my book.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/15 "2007-04-05T15:12:36Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
I hate to break it to you, but Hillary is not a liberal any more than Bill was. A lot of liberals hate Hillary for her support of the Iraqalypse.
Rewind to 2000: Gore wins popular vote but loses due to an ill-designed ballot in south Florida, giving huge Jewish support to Pat Buchanan.
Now to 2004: The supposedly weak John Kerry nearly wins popular vote and loses due to election fraud in Ohio.
Now to 2006: Democrats sweep to power in both houses of Congress.
I don’t see a lesson to be learned. The Democrats are surging and two narrow fraudulent defeats in the presidential races doesn’t negate that. Iraq changed everything- the Republicans will win in 2008 only with massive electoral fraud and/or the Democratic candidate makes an incredible mistake.
[/QUOTE]
Here, in a nutshell, is exactly why the OP is dead on. Denial of reality, a paranoid persecution complex and a healthy dose of “blame someone else for our problems”. You know Bob, this may play well with the base as y’all sit around drinking the Kool-aid, but it’s very off putting to most of the rest of the voting public, you know, those folks in the middle you actually have to convince to vote for your guy? Navigating through an election by the seat of your arrogance isn’t a winning strategy. Jesus, when will you guys ever learn?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/16 "2007-04-05T15:20:59Z")
Yeah, really offputting. Real, heartland Americans don’t cotton to that sort of thing. Explains why that last Congressional election was such a ringing endorsement for GeeDubCo.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/17 "2007-04-05T15:25:19Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
Rewind to 2000: Gore wins popular vote but loses due to an ill-designed ballot in south Florida, giving huge Jewish support to Pat Buchanan.
[/quote]
More to the point: Bush wins because Gore cannot even win his home state.
> [@](#):
>
> Now to 2004: The supposedly weak John Kerry nearly wins popular vote and loses due to election fraud in Ohio.
And you can prove this, right? Of course you can! :rolleyes:
Kerry lost because he had about as much charisma as the chair I’m sitting in. My God, to beat Bush in 2004 all Kerry had to do was be a human being. Alas, he couldn’t even muster up enough personality to do that. And I say that as one who voted for him.
I know I’m being trolled here, and I know I shouldn’t take the bait, but I did anyway, to my shame. Quit being a sore loser and put up a candidate that will decisively win, rather than people that, based upon their campaigns, will finish third running unopposed.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/18 "2007-04-05T15:44:55Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
I hate to break it to you, but Hillary is not a liberal any more than Bill was. A lot of liberals hate Hillary for her support of the Iraqalypse.
Rewind to 2000: Gore wins popular vote but loses due to an ill-designed ballot in south Florida, giving huge Jewish support to Pat Buchanan.
Now to 2004: The supposedly weak John Kerry nearly wins popular vote and loses due to election fraud in Ohio.
Now to 2006: Democrats sweep to power in both houses of Congress.
I don’t see a lesson to be learned. The Democrats are surging and two narrow fraudulent defeats in the presidential races doesn’t negate that. Iraq changed everything- the Republicans will win in 2008 only with massive electoral fraud and/or the Democratic candidate makes an incredible mistake.
[/QUOTE]
What a load of crap, **Bob**. If Kerry “nearly wins the popular vote” in '04, then so did Bush in '00. In fact, the '00 race was a lot closer in that respect. As much as I hate to agree with **WeirdDave** , he’s right. The Dems will struggle to win with such a persecution complex.
As for the OP, I think a lot of us have been saying pretty much the same thing for some time now. The Dems would be better served with someone other than Hillary or Obama running. I don’t think it’s quite as much of a foregone conclusion as the OP thinks, but I can easily see Giuliani beating either of them. And if Thompson jumps in, he’s got even a better chance. He could really shake things up right now.
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### Author:  [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/19 "2007-04-05T16:00:03Z")
Agreed - The best way to get Giuliani to win is to nominate Clinton or Obama.
Clinton is nearly as polarizing as GW is. We do not need that.
Obama can be easily painted as inexperienced…
I think Richardson is the way to go.
---
### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/20 "2007-04-05T16:01:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
What a load of crap, **Bob**. If Kerry “nearly wins the popular vote” in '04, then so did Bush in '00. In fact, the '00 race was a lot closer in that respect. As much as I hate to agree with **WeirdDave** , he’s right. The Dems will struggle to win with such a persecution complex.
I agree with this completely, but it represents the beliefs of a fringe element of the Democratic Party.
As for the OP, I think a lot of us have been saying pretty much the same thing for some time now. The Dems would be better served with someone other than Hillary or Obama running. I don’t think it’s quite as much of a foregone conclusion as the OP thinks, but I can easily see Giuliani beating either of them. And if Thompson jumps in, he’s got even a better chance. He could really shake things up right now.
This is lunacy. Guliani is never going to get any support from the religious right, and that alone will sink any Republican candidate. They are the base, Republicans can’t win without their support, end of story. The idea that running a “real” Republican, one who believes in conservartive economic principles while advocationg a Libertarian stance on social issues, and winning, is a myth. The Republican Party hitched it’s wagon to the Religious Right a long time ago, ang they can no longer win without them. I also wonder why one would think that a one term Senator with with huge approval and name recognition would be less likely to win than a one and a half term (not even) Senator who no one has ever heard of?
[/QUOTE]
Gotta put something here or it won’t post. Excrement.
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