# Election 2008: Did the Dems Learn from 2004?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 5, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813 "2007-04-05T02:17:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/201 "2007-04-07T19:58:30Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One]
I’m just stating fact as demonstrated by the reaction to 9/11 and the national security/defense baggage carried by the democrats.
[/quote]
The “facts” that you have remain a Koolaid drink.
> [@](#):
>
> Only someone who is ideologically blinded to political reality would deny that a terrorist attack on american soil would not hurt the political fortunes of anyone deemed left of center.
Yeah, once again it is because “we republicans say so”, of course I know that the media will show again their true colors and talk more about the democrats suffering more, but after the last election I think it is a losing talking point for the Republicans.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/202 "2007-04-07T20:01:55Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One]
I’m just stating fact as demonstrated by the reaction to 9/11 and the national security/defense baggage carried by the democrats
[/quote]
No telling how much more the people would have decided to trust the Democrats _more_, even on national defense issues, last November without all that baggage they’re carrying, huh?
> [@](#):
>
> Only someone who is ideologically blinded to political reality would deny that a terrorist attack on american soil would not hurt the political fortunes of anyone deemed left of center.
You don’t think an attack would do far more hurt to the fortunes of those whose \*job \* it was to protect us from them, but _failed_? Especially if their claim to a superior ability to do so was the primary reason they still had those jobs anyway?
Gorblimey. Tell us more about being “ideologically blinded”. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/203 "2007-04-07T20:02:00Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One]
I’ll bite. I believe that at least 2/3 of the current number of soldiers inside the border of Iraq will be outside those borders by August 1st of 2008.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you’re right. Which means, in my woeful experience, that you’re probably wrong.
> [@](#):
>
> …That’s because the numbers simply aren’t there to make an openly far-left presidential candidate electable…
Really? Howzabout that guy, whathisface, the one who got more votes than GeeDubya? Presumably, he doesn’t qualify in the **EO** bestiary as “openly far-left”
> [@](#):
>
> …The bottom line for Democrats is that committed liberals will not fly as national candidates…
Not even a “committed liberal”, it would seem.
Oh, woe is us! Doom! Doom! The recent elections were but a chimera, a shimmering desert mirage! I only hope I can see clearly enough through my bitter tears to fill out this Republican registration form!
Hey, got it from **Evil One**! Who has been so clearly right on so many, many topics. No, no, an approval rate of 30% is a \*good \* thing, and all these scandals just garner sympathy for the Bushiviks. And soon, soon, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Feith will be recognized as saviors of thier country! And monkeys will fly out by butt, and then _they_ will register as Republican.
Whaddaya smokin, **EO**? Jimson weed?
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/204 "2007-04-07T20:04:02Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
I hope you’re right. Which means, in my woeful experience, that you’re probably wrong.
[/quote]
- yea, it’s a real win-win for me. If the troops are home, we all win. if they aren’t , big bucks\*, and bragging rights.
- well, as big as we can afford
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/205 "2007-04-07T20:06:19Z")
Fair question. **Evil One** , tell us, what \*have \* you been right about recently, in contrast to our poor, benighted “reality-based community”? \*Which \* of your recent political prognostications has turned out to be true?
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/206 "2007-04-07T20:08:27Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One]
I’ll bite. I believe that at least 2/3 of the current number of soldiers inside the border of Iraq will be outside those borders by August 1st of 2008.
[/QUOTE]
Of course, that would mean a de facto admission that everyrhing the Republicans have been telling us about Iraq has been wrong.
And they have such a good record of admitting failure and taking responsibility.
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/207 "2007-04-07T20:18:45Z")
ok, little help from the teemings - can we get a consensus on how many troops are stationed in Iraq now?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/208 "2007-04-07T20:20:06Z")
Whaddaya mean “admitting failure and taking responsibility”? They haven’t failed, it is only that they have not yet suceeded! See, there’s the trouble with liberals, bitterly pessimistic while simultaneously naive Pollyannas.
I’m indulging in a bit of two-bit psychology, but I think GeeDubya really believes it. No, _really_! I think he \*genuinely \* believes that one more surge, one more Friedman Unit, and it will all turn around! Sunni and Shia and Kurd will dance around the oil derrick Maypole, holding hands and singing “Kumballah”! And when he gives another speech before an adoring Congress, they will leap up from thier chairs to interrupt him every five words with standing ovations, until half of them collapse in cardiac infarctions, their last whispered words adoration for The Leader…
These are the tormented dreams as he weeps into his pillow… And it is better than he deserves.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/209 "2007-04-07T20:36:23Z")
If only the Baker-Hamilton Commission had recognized Bush’s emotional age, used reverse psychology, and recommended an _escalation_ instead of this wussy diplomacy stuff his Poppy likes. Then Bush might have withdrawn instead, just to show\* he’s\* The Decider.
**wring** , [this](http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm) looks right, as of March 14:
> [@](#):
>
> Troops in Iraq - Total 155,035, including 141,000 from the US, 7,100 from the UK, and 6,935 from all other nations (other than Iraq).
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/210 "2007-04-07T20:41:41Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
If only the Baker-Hamilton Commission had recognized Bush’s emotional age, used reverse psychology, and recommended an _escalation_ instead of this wussy diplomacy stuff his Poppy likes. Then Bush might have withdrawn instead, just to show\* he’s\* The Decider.
**wring** , [this](http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm) looks right, as of March 14:
[/QUOTE]
cool, thanks, so 2/3 of 141000 = 94000, leaving 47000 in Iraq by August 1 2008. Sound about right?
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### Author:  [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/211 "2007-04-07T21:16:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
It would also hurt the political fortunes of anyone identified or associated with the Bush Admin or the neocons. I mean, we’ve been following their lead, giving them a free hand, doing everything they say, ever since 9/11, and they **still** let this happen **again?!**
[/QUOTE]
That will be said by those who disagree with the Republicans. People who agree with them will view the attack as the result of left-of-center folks to “stand in the way” of security measures. The truth, of course, will lie somewhere in the middle.
This subject was discussed in another thread that referenced the perceived notion that Democrats are perceived as weak on national security issues. If a democrat is elected and a 9/11 scale attack follows, it will be devastating to the democrats.
Of course this time it will be the democrats who will be trying to blame the previous administration instead of the republicans, but the rhetoric will be the same. Only the speakers will have reversed the nametags.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/212 "2007-04-07T21:17:42Z")
[QUOTE=wring]
cool, thanks, so 2/3 of 141000 = 94000, leaving 47000 in Iraq by August 1 2008. Sound about right?
[/QUOTE]
Good enough.
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/213 "2007-04-07T21:20:27Z")
Terms of bet have been settled privately, if US troops in Iraq **are** reduced to a level below 2/3 of current (about 47,000) by August 1, 2008, I loose the bet, but the nation wins. If troops **aren’t** reduced to about 47 k, I win the bet, the nation looses.
(edited to add August 1, 2008 :smack: )
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/214 "2007-04-07T21:24:38Z")
[QUOTE=wring]
Terms of bet have been settled privately, if US troops in Iraq **are** reduced to a level below 2/3 of current (about 47,000) by August 1, 2008, I loose the bet, but the nation wins. If troops **aren’t** reduced to about 47 k, I win the bet, the nation looses.
(edited to add August 1, 2008 :smack: )
[/QUOTE]
I hope you win your bet, but damnit, stop with looses!
Lose = opposite of win
Loose = opposite of tight
**GAH!**
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/215 "2007-04-07T21:26:15Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
I hope you win your bet, but damnit, stop with looses!
Lose = opposite of win
Loose = opposite of tight
**GAH!**
[/QUOTE]
sorry - I’m just used to winning. 🙂
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/216 "2007-04-07T21:33:23Z")
I’d rather she \*lose \* the bet.
And the nation win.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/217 "2007-04-07T21:34:16Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Really? Howzabout that guy, whathisface, the one who got more votes than GeeDubya? Presumably, he doesn’t qualify in the **EO** bestiary as “openly far-left”
[/QUOTE]
Gore ran as a moderate, luci. You didn’t hear him bandying about income redistribution, universal health care or any other issues of “socialism lite”.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Not even a “committed liberal”, it would seem.
[/QUOTE]
Like McGovern? Carter? Mondale? Dukakis? Carter managed to get narrowly elected post-watergate. Clinton is the only Democrat to have any success since then and he can thank Ross Perot for his first term. Clinton was also smart enough to talk like a moderate to get re-elected.
And yes, Bush can thank Ralph Nader for the White House. But Gore was rejected in red states for not being moderate enough and rejected by Nadar voters for not being liberal enough. Such is the box that traps the modern democratic party.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Oh, woe is us! Doom! Doom! The recent elections were but a chimera, a shimmering desert mirage! I only hope I can see clearly enough through my bitter tears to fill out this Republican registration form!
[/QUOTE]
Don’t get too excited over some local elections swinging your way due to war fatigue and a rare moment of national cooperation by the democrats to nominate more moderate candidates and present a moderate national message. Presidential elections are a different animal.
As an aside, congress is now the democrats to lose. If they stay calm and don’t propose stuff that won’t fly, they could stay in power for awhile. And part of me hopes they do. I agree with some of the things that the Democrats were advocating.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/218 "2007-04-07T21:36:20Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Fair question. **Evil One** , tell us, what \*have \* you been right about recently, in contrast to our poor, benighted “reality-based community”? \*Which \* of your recent political prognostications has turned out to be true?
[/QUOTE]
You can do the work if you like, Elvis. If you find one that was wrong, I’ll issue a mea culpa to not being able to fortell the future with one hundred percent accuracy.
One that will be easy for you…I maintained pre-Foley that the Republicans would narrowly retain power in both houses of congress. Once the Foley scandal broke, I changed my mind.
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/219 "2007-04-07T21:36:42Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
I’d rather she \*lose \* the bet.
And the nation win.
[/QUOTE]
me, too. I just don’t think it’ll happen.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-2008-did-the-dems-learn-from-2004/398813/220 "2007-04-07T21:37:51Z")
[QUOTE=wring]
cool, thanks, so 2/3 of 141000 = 94000, leaving 47000 in Iraq by August 1 2008. Sound about right?
[/QUOTE]
By the way, I expect those troop totals to be reduced primarily to reduce electoral vulnerability. Yes, I am that cynical.
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