# Election decided by lot and a sore loser
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [January 7, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071 "2018-01-07T20:50:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/81 "2018-01-10T18:00:35Z")
> [@Falchion](#):
>
> That is a false understanding. [The board is made up of three members representing “each of the political parties having the highest and next highest number of votes in the Commonwealth for Governor at the last preceding gubernatorial election.”](https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title24.2/chapter1/section24.2-102/) In appointing members, “Two Board members shall be of the political party which cast the highest number of votes for Governor at that election.” That is, there are currently two Democrats and one Republican on the board. Wheeler is the Republican.
It does seem I was mistaken. I was trying to find the party affiliation, one was very obviously republican affiliated, one was very obviously democratically affiliated, and the third seemed fairly neutral.
While I was incorrect in my assessment, and was having trouble finding the law that sets it up, that is still pretty far off from HD’s claim that Wheeler was appointed by a democratic governor, therefore, doesn’t sound like a republican.
> [@](#):
>
> Alcorn was appointed by Terry McAullife as a Democratic board member. (I will note that unlike the other Democratic board member, who as a long history in partisan politics, Alcorn appears to be a career elections board staff member, so his political leanings may be less predictable).
I spent more time than I should have reading stories and interviews with Alcorn trying to determine his party. I didn’t really see much that indicated he was a democrat, and a few clues that he sided with the republicans, so I did make the assumption that he was the neutral party.
I still didn’t like the drawing though. There were ways to give it a bit more integrity that they chose not to use. If the result had been the other way around, with the nominal democrat in charge of drawing, then I would expect the republicans to call shenanigans on the draw. As it was a nominal democrat who did the draw, it is harder for the dems to make that accusation to “one of their own”, but, like I said, there are plenty of non-partisan reasons to cheat as well.
At this point, I change my perspective a bit, in that it is possible that Alcorn was not in on cheating at all, but the system was set up deliberately to have little integrity so that, in the event that the democrat’s name was chosen, the republicans would challenge the draw, on the grounds that it would be trivially easy to cheat with that setup.
A “heads I win, tails you cheated so we reflip” scenario.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/82 "2018-01-10T18:23:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I don’t have an objection. I assumed you’d find something in her statement somewhere between mildly annoying and glaringly offensive, but hey, if you guys don’t have a problem with “Democrat team”, neither do I. I’ll just file that factoid away for later.
OK. I still don’t have any idea what you’re talking about though.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/83 "2018-01-10T18:26:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> My apologies, in reading back through my previous reply, you are correct, it was overly harsh towards you. Sorry.
>
> I’d like to come to some shared understand of reality and a common factual basis. I submit this statement for your review:
>
> Two of the three members of the Virginia Board of Elections are Democrats, including James Alcorn, the guy that actually drew the winning name out of the bowl.
>
> Do we agree that the above is correct?
I am still not sure where to find a cite that this guy is a democrat, but yeah, it does appear as though he is nominally a democrat, though the vice chair is definitely a republican. The other person that did not participate in the drawing was also a democrat.
I just can’t get over getting hung up on the draw though, as it was quite literally a duplicate of a “magic trick” that I performed in 3rd grade. It is possible the draw was clean, but I don’t know why they would go about doing it in such a way as to make it that easy to cheat.
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### Author:  [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/84 "2018-01-10T18:31:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> It does seem I was mistaken. I was trying to find the party affiliation, one was very obviously republican affiliated, one was very obviously democratically affiliated, and the third seemed fairly neutral.
>
> While I was incorrect in my assessment, and was having trouble finding the law that sets it up, that is still pretty far off from HD’s claim that Wheeler was appointed by a democratic governor, therefore, doesn’t sound like a republican.
>
> I spent more time than I should have reading stories and interviews with Alcorn trying to determine his party. I didn’t really see much that indicated he was a democrat, and a few clues that he sided with the republicans, so I did make the assumption that he was the neutral party.
I agree that you and HD were both wrong about the members of the board of elections (you were wrong when you said Alcorn was a Republican; you were wrong when you said Alcorn was independent; and HD was wrong when he said Wheeler was a Democrat).
Alcorn was [interviewed a while back](http://www.richmond.com/news/local/sunday-q-a-with-james-b-alcorn-state-board-of/article_a731413e-06c0-5fa2-a0b5-1cfc5daed7f0.html) and explained that he personal policy was to avoid partisan political activity while working for the board and while being a member to promote the idea that the Board was nonpartisan. I’m not sure I would have predicted that that policy would end up being a negative.
(Although, if you go back before this election, Alcorn got a lot of flack from Republican sources for his role in McAullife’s efforts to restore voting rights to felons en masse. Those articles were quick to point out that Alcorn was a appointed to a Democratic seat on the Board.)
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/85 "2018-01-10T18:38:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I don’t have an objection. I assumed you’d find something in her statement somewhere between mildly annoying and glaringly offensive, but hey, if you guys don’t have a problem with “Democrat team”, neither do I. I’ll just file that factoid away for later.
I see where you are going with this, but I would say that it isn’t that big a deal. If she had said “Democrat party”, I’d have :dubious:'d. But “democrat team”, I dunno, it’s team democrat. It is possible that she misspoke, but not that big a deal.
If you notice, it is rare that people get “shit” for saying “Democrat party”, the first time. It is usually a correction. Just as if someone called you “HurricaDitka”. You’d say, hey, that’s not my name, it’s HurricaneDitka. No biggie, right?
But then if I was persistent, and everytime I referred to you, I called you “HurricaDitka”, you’d start to get a bit annoyed, would you not?
Then, even if a few of you opponents kept calling you that, for no reason that can be articulated with any sort of maturity, a friend of your refers to a group gathering that you hosted as “Hurrica Team”, you are unlikely to give them shit about it, right?
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/86 "2018-01-10T19:05:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> I see where you are going with this, but I would say that it isn’t that big a deal. If she had said “Democrat party”, I’d have :dubious:'d. But “democrat team”, I dunno, it’s team democrat. It is possible that she misspoke, but not that big a deal.
>
> If you notice, it is rare that people get “shit” for saying “Democrat party”, the first time. It is usually a correction. Just as if someone called you “HurricaDitka”. You’d say, hey, that’s not my name, it’s HurricaneDitka. No biggie, right?
>
> But then if I was persistent, and everytime I referred to you, I called you “HurricaDitka”, you’d start to get a bit annoyed, would you not?
>
> Then, even if a few of you opponents kept calling you that, for no reason that can be articulated with any sort of maturity, a friend of your refers to a group gathering that you hosted as “Hurrica Team”, you are unlikely to give them shit about it, right?
Yeah, it was more of a flippant, light-hearted comment than a serious suggestion. Team D would have to be pretty cold-hearted to actually give their candidate grief for a minor mis-statement while dealing with a tough loss.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/87 "2018-01-10T19:12:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Hey, **septimus** , given what we now know about who appointed the Vice Chair and Secretary, would you like to revise any of this, or are you just going to leave it hanging out there like an ugly wart on your (undoubtedly - other than this one time of course - flawless) record?
I am not _certain_ that Alcorn was cheating. I merely point out that
- it would have been extremely easy for him to keep his hand on the GOP canister throughout the shuffling.
- there were simple and obvious ways to vary the procedure to eliminate this easy way to cheat; surely they would have been discussed if a sincere effort was ever made to develop a fair lot-drawing.
- the stakes were extremely high — there are probably businessmen who collectively would pay many millions to affect this draw.
I’m not _certain_ one way or the other if cheating occurred on this draw. Neither are you. If I had to guess, I’d say the chance is 60% that severe cheating occurred.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/88 "2018-01-10T19:13:20Z")
> [@Falchion](#):
>
> … HD was wrong when he said Wheeler was a Democrat). …
First off, **Falchion** , thank you for shedding some much-needed light on this subject. I appreciate your insight.
In my defense, I was pretty upfront about my ignorance of the partisan leanings of the members of the Virginia BoE and I don’t believe I ever claimed she was a Democrat, just that she was appointed by a Democrat. I said:
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> … Also, [here are the members of the Virginia Board of Elections](https://www.elections.virginia.gov/board/board-members/index.html). I don’t know much of anything about their partisan background, but it says this about the Vice Chair: “In February 2015, the Governor appointed her to the four-year term as Vice Chair of the Virginia State Board of Elections.” and this about the Secretary: “In February 2015, the Governor appointed her to the four-year term as Secretary of the Virginia State Board of Elections.” Wikipedia tells me that Terry McAuliffe, a Democrat, “[served as the 72nd Governor of Virginia from 2014 to 2018.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_McAuliffe)”. They certainly don’t sound like Republicans. Are they? …
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Like I said earlier, I don’t know anything about the partisan composition of the Virginia Board of Elections. It appears that the other two board members were appointed by Democrat Terry McAuliffe. The website doesn’t say anything about how the Chairman, James Alcorn, ended up in that position. You’re saying he’s Republican. What’s the source for that information?
IIRC, the closest I got was “They certainly don’t sound like Republicans. Are they?”
ETA: It’s certainly a lot farther away from an explicit claim than **septimus** and **I Love Me, Vol. I** made
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/89 "2018-01-10T19:16:04Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> I am not _certain_ that Alcorn was cheating. I merely point out that
>
> - it would have been extremely easy for him to keep his hand on the GOP canister throughout the shuffling.
> - there were simple and obvious ways to vary the procedure to eliminate this easy way to cheat; surely they would have been discussed if a sincere effort was ever made to develop a fair lot-drawing.
> - the stakes were extremely high — there are probably businessmen who collectively would pay many millions to affect this draw.
>
> I’m not _certain_ one way or the other if cheating occurred on this draw. Neither are you. If I had to guess, I’d say the chance is 60% that severe cheating occurred.
Did you, by chance, watch the C-SPAN video I provided a link to?
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/90 "2018-01-10T19:24:00Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> … I’m not _certain_ one way or the other if cheating occurred on this draw. …
Two days ago you felt certain enough to label him “GOP Cheatman Alcorn”.
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### Author:  [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/91 "2018-01-10T19:39:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I don’t have an objection. I assumed you’d find something in her statement somewhere between mildly annoying and glaringly offensive, but hey, if you guys don’t have a problem with “Democrat team”, neither do I. I’ll just file that factoid away for later.
You might have noticed that black people typically do not get upset when another black person refers to a black person with the term “nigger” but do get upset when a white person does. I presume this is because they are not using the word in a dismissive or derisive manner. Many republicans do appear to be using the “adjective” “Democrat” in exactly that manner. This could possibly be the difference here as well.
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### Author:  [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/92 "2018-01-10T19:41:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Did you, by chance, watch the C-SPAN video I provided a link to?
I just watched the procedure used and I would say that cheating would have been possible if the chair and vice chair were acting together. You can tell that when the canisters are put in the bowl that Yancey is toward the back (from the chair’s perspective). The vice chair did some stuff (including this weird thing where she rolled the canisters back and forth without changing their relative position) and could have put the canisters back in with Yancey deliberately in the front or back.
I think the best argument against cheating is the vice chair threw the canisters back in with some force risking bouncing when she could have carefully placed them back in the bowl.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/93 "2018-01-10T20:22:04Z")
> [@Folly](#):
>
> … I think the best argument against cheating is the vice chair threw the canisters back in with some force risking bouncing when she could have carefully placed them back in the bowl.
I agree with both you and **k9bfriender** that there are things they could have done better, but I’m surprised that the way she dropped the canisters in the bowl is “the best argument against cheating” in your eyes. I would have thought that the fact that the guy picking the canister is a Democrat with no discernible motive for helping Yancey win would be “the best argument against cheating”.
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### Author:  [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/94 "2018-01-10T20:30:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I agree with both you and **k9bfriender** that there are things they could have done better, but I’m surprised that the way she dropped the canisters in the bowl is “the best argument against cheating” in your eyes. I would have thought that the fact that the guy picking the canister is a Democrat with no discernible motive for helping Yancey win would be “the best argument against cheating”.
I didn’t read the above back and forth carefully enough to determine if it was resolved whether he was a Democrat or Republican. But I would stick with my answer even if he was a known Democrat. It’s not like Democrats can’t be paid off or something while the video is something I can evaluate with my own eyes.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/95 "2018-01-10T20:53:18Z")
> [@Folly](#):
>
> I didn’t read the above back and forth carefully enough to determine if it was resolved whether he was a Democrat or Republican. But I would stick with my answer even if he was a known Democrat. It’s not like Democrats can’t be paid off or something while the video is something I can evaluate with my own eyes.
There have been all sorts of wild conspiracy theories in this thread. **septimus** suggested the canister might have been greased. **Stranger On A Train** called it “corruption in public view”. **k9bfriender** said “it could have been a very small amount of sleight of hand”. And now you’ve chimed in with “It’s not like Democrats can’t be paid off or something …”.
Look, I get it. Your girl lost a close election that you thought, at least at one point, she had in the bag (for the second time in two years). That’s frustrating. Probably _really_ frustrating, like Lucy yanking the football away. But the conspiracy theories being entertained in this thread would make Alex Jones blush. It’s something that I would have hoped would have been beneath the SDMB.
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### Author:  [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/96 "2018-01-10T21:01:08Z")
I don’t know if I have enough post history for someone to determine if she was my girl or not. My point, after looking at the video, was that cheating was possible if the chair and vice chair were both in on it because of the dumb way they did the drawing.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/97 "2018-01-10T21:10:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> There have been all sorts of wild conspiracy theories in this thread. **septimus** suggested the canister might have been greased. **Stranger On A Train** called it “corruption in public view”. **k9bfriender** said “it could have been a very small amount of sleight of hand”. And now you’ve chimed in with “It’s not like Democrats can’t be paid off or something …”.
>
> Look, I get it. Your girl lost a close election that you thought, at least at one point, she had in the bag (for the second time in two years). That’s frustrating. Probably _really_ frustrating, like Lucy yanking the football away. But the conspiracy theories being entertained in this thread would make Alex Jones blush. It’s something that I would have hoped would have been beneath the SDMB.
I think you’re overstating a bit. Most of the responses were that the situation would easily have allowed cheating to occur, not that it necessarily actually did. The appearance is questionable.
And at this point, most any Democratic candidate is ‘my girl/guy.’
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/98 "2018-01-10T21:40:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> **k9bfriender** said “it could have been a very small amount of sleight of hand”.
I am just put off by the fact that it is the exact same set up that I used to “cheat” in a magic show when I was 8. When I first watched the stream, I was wondering if it were a parody, with the set up being so blatantly easy to cheat.
Upon realizing that, no, that is in fact the official way they just ended a very controversial election, I really couldn’t believe it. Whether or not there was cheating, you should be on the up and up and do things in such a way to remove the possibility of cheating.
I don’t know exactly who came up with the process they used (and I’m not talking about drawing lots in general, I’m talking about film canisters and this particular bowl), but they were either very naive or very cynical.
Is there any reason that they were not able to do things in a more transparent manner that would assure all of fairness? It’s not that there were no other ways of randomly drawing, but they chose this one, why?
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/99 "2018-01-10T21:55:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> … Is there any reason that they were not able to do things in a more transparent manner that would assure all of fairness? It’s not that there were no other ways of randomly drawing, but they chose this one, why?
I suspect that they wish they had, in hindsight. The reality is that they’re just average people doing the best they can. I doubt they ever imagined that a bunch of weirdos (I’m including myself here, this isn’t intended as an insult) on the Internet would be poring over the footage, checking the angle and direction of his eyes, or the number of mixing swirls made before the draw, or slandering them as “GOP Cheatman”. In the past they used a cardboard box, FFS. This isn’t some grand conspiracy, it’s just normal folks being mediocre at whatever task they’re trying to accomplish. It happens every day, all across this country.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-decided-by-lot-and-a-sore-loser/806071/100 "2018-01-11T15:22:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I think you and I were trying to make the same point. I quoted another poster who said the D “actually won the recount” and you used the word “apparent”, but I think our point is the same: the certified tie is the result that matters, not the original count, and not the (to borrow your word) apparent recount tally that had the D up by 1 vote.
OK, I see.
My apologies for misunderstanding you, and jumping on what you said on account of that.
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