# Election Problems: If it doesn't alter the outcome, it doesn't matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968 "2004-11-21T18:35:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/1 "2004-11-21T18:35:11Z")
I don’t get this. Seems to me that glitches, fiascos, fraud, and vote suppression matter. Period. Any and all cases of suspected hanky-panky should be persued, and, if there seems to be any substance to them, people should be indicted. Regardless of the impact or lack thereof on the outcome. Glitches should be examined, and steps taken to avoid a recurrance. Regardless of the impact or lack thereof on the outcome. Re the recent Presidential election, there are many allegations of election fraud and vote suppression. IMHO, we _do not know_ if any of the alleged things changed the outcome in any state. I am mystified by the widespread assumption that “whatever may have gone wrong cannot possibly have effected the outcome,” and I am mystified by the twin assumption that therefore, “whatever may have happened doesn’t matter; it should just be ignored”. **Articles** (Note: more articles on the election are to be found on both of these sites.) [http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm) Hearing in Ohio Voting Puts 2004 Election in Doubt Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman Article picked up from the Columbus Free Press (Hearing held; many testifed re cases of vote suppression.) [http://www.truthout.org/docs\_04/111304A.shmtl](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/111304A.shmtl) Worst Voter Error is Apathy toward Irregularities Donna Britt Article picked up from the Washington Post [http://www.truthout.org/docs\_04/110804A.shtml](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110804A.shtml) Worse Than 2000: Tuesday’s Election Disaster William Rivers Pitt **Sites** [http://www.blackboxvoting.org/](http://www.blackboxvoting.org/) > **[Greg Palast: Investigative Reporter](https://www.gregpalast.com/)** > > Greg Palast has broken stories for BBC TV's Newsnight, The Guardian, Nation Magazine and Rolling Stone. [http://www.helpamericarecount.org/](http://www.helpamericarecount.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/2 "2004-11-21T19:28:29Z")
You’ll certainly get no argument from me! It is astonishing that anyone would assert that it doesn’t matter after 2000! Of course it matters! It matters desperately, on so many levels! If the United States, of all countries, cannot be counted upon to have honest, fair, and functional elecitons, then we have nothing, absolutely nothing. Everything else we are supposedly about becomes dust. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/3 "2004-11-21T19:44:48Z")
> [@Hazel](#): > > [http://www.truthout.org/docs\_04/111304A.shmtl](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/111304A.shmtl) > Worst Voter Error is Apathy toward Irregularities This article, which, in title, seems to best support your OP that some people don’t care so long as the outcome is certain, doesn’t work for me. I haven’t heard too, too many people say that we shouldn’t care just because it won’t change this election. At least not in so many words. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/4 "2004-11-21T19:46:34Z")
Until someone presents a serious case (that is, something championed by a source a bit more neutral than [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org)) I am not going to waste my time even replying to the ridiculous garbage presented here. Except to say BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This is all the left has? Pretty sad. Stop wasting time. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/5 "2004-11-21T20:11:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Until someone presents a serious case (that is, something championed by a source a bit more neutral than [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org)) I am not going to waste my time even replying to the ridiculous garbage presented here. > > Except to say BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This is all the left has? Pretty sad. Stop wasting time. Hey, **Bricker**. We all know you think ideas about election irregularities are “ridiculous garbage”. But do you _really_ want to go on record being so dismissive of the subject that you freakin’ laugh like a villian when the topic is raised? I mean, you’re basically sowing the seeds of irony that’ll grow up to haunt you just as soon as one of your candidates loses to possible fraud. Maybe it’s best if you not say anything. That way, your words won’t find a way to hurt you later. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/6 "2004-11-21T20:15:47Z")
I think it definitely matters and all cases of any election problems should be investigated, explained, and corrected for the next election. A big problem and probably the biggest problem right now is electronic voting. Firstly I think we need a paper trail or electronic voting just cannot be put into effect. My state did not do evoting this election so I have no experience with it. But personally I think computerized voting booths with very simplistic touch stone screens could and even should be the wave of the future. Because eventually I think such a system will be extremely simple (just touch the name of the candidate you want to vote for, and if you mess up the computer can tell you BEFORE you finish that you’ve made an error, and plus the system should be designed so most simple voting errors won’t even be possible in the first place) and will probably eliminate many voter accidents. But the problem is of course it’s hard to trust voting software and it just seems far too easy for one malicious person to change far too many votes. So that’s why in conjunction with the touchscreen voting booth, you simply get a computer printout, and that is the ballot that you turn in. The printout could be in the same format as a scantron/other self-checking format so votes can easily be counted using a machine similar to the one used to grade papers in school. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/7 "2004-11-21T20:24:04Z")
Six words: Florida in 2000. Ohio in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/8 "2004-11-21T20:24:14Z")
All I can say is that the rest of the world is looking at the United States, and shaking their heads. And folks like our friend **Bricker** seem to be taking actual joy in the fact that there is lots of circumstantial evidence, but since there is no concrete evidence, all it does is send their opponents into a tizzy. And the baby jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/9 "2004-11-21T20:25:09Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Hey, **Bricker**. We all know you think ideas about election irregularities are “ridiculous garbage”. But do you _really_ want to go on record being so dismissive of the subject that you freakin’ laugh like a villian when the topic is raised? I mean, you’re basically sowing the seeds of irony that’ll grow up to haunt you just as soon as one of your candidates loses to possible fraud. > > Maybe it’s best if you not say anything. That way, your words won’t find a way to hurt you later. I’m responding with a villianous laugh to allegations with no serious substance, such as have been presented here. Listen: if CBS News were willing to go forward with the Burkett letters on the flimsy evidence they had, they’d be jumping on any semi-solid election fraud issues. But it seems to be [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org), the Columbus “Free Press,” and other similarly situated organizations. So yes, I am foreclosing my ability to argue voter fraud in any case where the allegations are limited to fringe press. Pretty safe limitation, as I’d be embarrassed to air such allegations anyway. So - bring on some credible advocates, and my chuckles will vanish. In the meantime… BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHAHA! ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/10 "2004-11-21T20:42:04Z")
I don’t get the Bricker angle either. I personally doubt voting irregularities made a substantial difference in this election, but I’d sure be happier if these irregularities could be minimized, even if that meant Bush got more votes, and Kerry fewer, in the final tally. What’s wrong with improving the system, especially if that improvement effort could be bipartisan? Surely after 2000 it’s still worth it. I really don’t care who the winner or the loser is; either losing side will feel bitter and suspect fraud; and that’s the truly damaging problem, as it erodes confidence in our democratic process. I just don’t see why making it as robust and standardized as possible isn’t a worthwhile goal, and I doubt very much we’re anywhere near optimal now. Both sides of the political divide had some pretty legitimate concerns; Republicans were afraid of fraudulent votes being case; Democrats were afraid legitimate voters would be discouraged and unfairly challenged. Well, it’s bad if _either_ happens, in my book, so why not do as much as we can to avoid another electoral shitstorm before it breaks? Does everything in this country have to be traumatic before we decide it warrants improvement? What on Earth could be wrong with doing the utmost to ensure that every voter can cast a ballot and feel highly confident that that their vote will be counted properly? And if people resist such reforms, why _shouldn’t_ we suspect the lack of desire may stem from fear a useful loophole in a close race might be impossible to exploit, and hence they wish it to remain open for abuse? It only makes sense for everyone to ask, together, for the best voter system we can feasibly have, and I really don’t think we have it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/11 "2004-11-21T20:59:07Z")
So what’s your theory about why the only organizations suggesting fraud are CommonDreams and ReDefeatBush? Why, if there are substantive allegations, are no mainstream media outlets picking up on the story? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/12 "2004-11-21T21:06:09Z")
Dearest, dearest gawd, the innocence on display when this subject comes up is stunning, breathtaking, etc., etc. Kiddies, politics is a contact sport. It came down to Ohio. After 4 years of planning, do any of you honestly believe that whatever it took was going to be done to get Ohio in line? I haven’t followed this much, but just to dispense with the truly stupid idea that Ohio might have been fair, I’ll introduce you to some skullduggery from 1972, from the Democratic Primary in Ohio, lovingly recorded in _Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, '72_: > [@](#): > > By dawn on Wednesday it was still “too close to call”, officially - but sometime around five Harold Himmelman, McGovern’s national overseer for Ohio, had picked up one of the phones in the Neil House Situation Room and been jolted half out of his chair by the long-awaited tallies from Cleveland…Ten seconds after he picked up the phone Himmelmann was screaming “What? Jesus Christ! No! That’s impossible!” > He turned to Mankiewicz. “It’s all over. Listen to this…A hundred and nine to one! A hundred and twenty seven to three!”…“Say, how many more votes do they have to count up there?” > “As many as they need”, Mankiewicz muttered. > … > …McGovern’s slim lead has suddenly fallen apart, and the phones are ringing constantly, and every call brings a new horror story. > In Cincinatti, the vote-counters have decided to knock off and rest for twelve hours, a flagrant violation of Sec. 350529 of the State Election Code… Most telling of all is this: > [@](#): > > CBS John Hart election roundup. No hint of the all-night phone madness and treachery reports in the Situation Room. Even reading and watching _all the news_, there is no way to know the truth - except to be there. _Plus c’est change, plus c’est la meme chose._ Especially in Ohio, I have no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/13 "2004-11-21T21:15:47Z")
Probably because, as I said above, the problems in this election weren’t big enough to make a difference in the outcome. There’s insufficient evidence of a juicy scandal, so it’s time to talk about Scott Peterson some more, or this week’s beheading. I certainly don’t look to the mainstream media to prioritize issues. Nor do I look to conspiracy mongers, though all these sources likely present some useful signals amongst the noise. In the 2000 election there were reports in Roxbury that some white pollers were misleading black voters, sending them to the wrong polling station, or worse, trying to intimidate them so they wouldn’t cast a ballot. Likely national politics were not the motivating factors in these incidents, but nobody gave a shit in any event because MA always goes Democrat. This bugged the hell out of me, I wrote letters to sundry Officials, and never heard another word about it. I don’t care where or why it happens, people should have the ability to vote without fear of fraud or any other threat to their ability to participate in the process. I don’t think the argument being made by the OP is that electoral malfunctions would have made a difference in this election, and hence should be fixed. The OP is arguing that these malfunctions are a problem, no matter who wins or loses, and need to be dealt with constructively, for the good of the process. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/14 "2004-11-21T21:33:53Z")
**Bricker:** _So what’s your theory about why the only organizations suggesting fraud are CommonDreams and ReDefeatBush?_ I think you’re mixing up tinfoil-hat theories about massive election-stealing Republican conspiracies, which AFAICT nobody here is seriously defending, with legitimate concerns about what the OP calls “glitches, fiascos, fraud, and vote suppression”. There’s a whole Wikipedia article discussing the question of [electoral irregularities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities) in the 2004 elections, and many of the links in its “In the News” section are in fact to mainstream media stories. (E.g., this story from [Fort Wayne](http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/news/nation/10173663.htm) last Saturday about a voting error that actually changed the electoral outcome: ) > [@](#): > > A Democrat gained enough votes to bump a Republican from victory in a Franklin County Council race after a recount prompted by a computer glitch in optical-scan voting. > > The glitch in the Fidlar Election Co. system had recorded straight-Democratic Party votes for Libertarians and vice versa. > > When votes in southeastern Indiana’s Franklin County were recounted by hand Thursday night, Democrat Carroll Lanning leaped from fifth to third in the three-seat at-large commissioners race and Republican Roy Hall fell to fifth.[…] > > Fidlar confirmed the error Wednesday, a day after Democrats raised questions about preliminary results that included a Libertarian candidate for Congress winning 7.7 percent of the vote in Franklin County. That was more than four times the percentage of votes he had won across the entire district. > > No programming problems were found in Fidlar’s optical scan Accuvote 2000 ES system, said Dana Pittman, an account manager for the Rock Island, Ill.-based company. However, Fidlar also is verifying programming of its optical-scan equipment in Wisconsin and Michigan, which, like Indiana, have straight-party voting, Vern Paddock of Fidlar technical support told the Palladium-Item of Richmond. IMHO, such things are no chuckling matter. I think you are right to be skeptical about allegations of massive fraud, but you shouldn’t wave aside concerns about errors, vote suppression, and lack of transparency. Everybody, winners and losers alike, ought to care about having an honest and accurate electoral system. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/15 "2004-11-21T21:41:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m responding with a villianous laugh to allegations with no serious substance, such as have been presented here. The only allegation presented here is that there were irregularities. This is hardly unsubstantiated since the links presented provide evidence that irregularities occured. Care to address the evidence rather than ridiculing it? > [@](#): > > _Listen: if CBS News were willing to go forward with the Burkett letters on the flimsy evidence they had, they’d be jumping on any semi-solid election fraud issues._ This makes no sense. CBS News went forward with a story. One of the hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting the story was found to be fraudulent. The story itself holds up without that evidence and was never even challenged by the person it discredited. CBS News got it right. Sure they made a big mistake but still, they got it right. Yet the Million Pound Shithammer came down on them anyway. Where then is the incentive to jump on the fraud issues? > [@](#): > > \*So - bring on some credible advocates, and my chuckles will vanish. > > In the meantime…\* In the meantime you and others continue to poison the well. There is never any reason given to discredit the sources in the first place. Can you or anyone provide any reason to doubt the veracity of the people who are reporting electoral problems? > [@](#): > > \*Why, if there are substantive allegations, are no mainstream media outlets picking up on the story? \* ## They want to avoid the Million Pound Shithammer too. Right or wrong, the perception that a news organization is biased turns off potential customers. News organizations are for profit enterprises. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/16 "2004-11-21T23:04:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > A Democrat gained enough votes to bump a Republican from victory in a Franklin County Council race after a recount prompted by a computer glitch in optical-scan voting. Oh please. We all know what Bricker’s position on this will be: When there is a question about the results, just declare the Republican the winner. Easy as pie. No election controversy. Oh, sorry. Forgot to add the BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/17 "2004-11-21T23:15:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So yes, I am foreclosing my ability to argue voter fraud in any case where the allegations are limited to fringe press. And you’ve committed yourself to accepting the following definition of “fringe press”: “Any source that [insert name of any left-wing Doper] dismisses as biased”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/18 "2004-11-22T00:09:44Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > And you’ve committed yourself to accepting the following definition of “fringe press”: “Any source that [insert name of any left-wing Doper] dismisses as biased”. No. There are plenty of credible left-wing Dopers, and not too much dispute between credible left-wing Dopers and myself over credible sources. I don’t think I’ve ever had a dispute on these boards with anyone whose opinion I respect concerning the credibility of any source. quote=Kimstu]I think you’re mixing up tinfoil-hat theories about massive election-stealing Republican conspiracies, which AFAICT nobody here is seriously defending, with legitimate concerns about what the OP calls “glitches, fiascos, fraud, and vote suppression”. [/quote] No one here is seriously defending a theory of massive election-stealing conspiracies? Really? Even **pantom**? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/19 "2004-11-22T00:53:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m responding with a villianous laugh to allegations with no serious substance, such as have been presented here. Please specify which allegations you are referring to. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968/20 "2004-11-22T00:57:46Z")
Why do you hate democracy, **Bricker?** [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-problems-if-it-doesnt-alter-the-outcome-it-doesnt-matter/275968.md?page=2)