# Election questions for Bush supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397 "2004-11-06T21:32:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/1 "2004-11-06T21:32:32Z")
I have some questions. I’d like Bush supporters to offer answers, if you would be so kind. 1. Why were no Bush supporters, here or in the country at large, or among pundits…concerned at all about the demonsrated problems with the voting machines? Why was it only Kerry supporters? 2. Why is it that no one has yet reported voting for Kerry on a machine and having the machine ask for confirmation of their Bush vote, yet we have dozens if not hundreds of reports for the reverse? And why is this being accepted? 3. Why are the most [Outrageous disparities](http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html) between the exit polls and the final tallys in swing states with voting machines, and why do they show a complete switch from Kerry to Bush, but never the other way? 4. If it can be clearly shown that the machines and the votes were rigged to give the election to Bush, will this bother you at all? And here’s one for the Kerry contingent: Why are you buying into the idea that Bush won “fair and square” when all these problems exist? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/2 "2004-11-06T21:34:20Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > 1. Why are the most [Outrageous disparities](http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html) between the exit polls and the final tallys in swing states with voting machines, and why do they show a complete switch from Kerry to Bush, but never the other way? Why do you assume the exit polls weren’t biased? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/3 "2004-11-06T21:39:08Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > 1. Why is it that no one has yet reported voting for Kerry on a machine and having the machine ask for confirmation of their Bush vote, yet we have dozens if not hundreds of reports for the reverse? And why is this being accepted? I’m confused. Don’t you mean the opposite? Other than that, I’d love to hear answers to the rest of your questions. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/4 "2004-11-06T21:40:20Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Why do you assume the exit polls weren’t biased? Because that’s the default assumption. Why do you assume they were? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/5 "2004-11-06T21:41:24Z")
First, I think you meant item 2 to say the opposite of what it says. Second, I am on the fence regarding this issue. One thing making me think there _wasn’t_ fraud involved is that graphics like the one you link to are almost the best evidence I have seen, yet they do not clearly explain their sources or their rationale for choosing to show results for some states and not others. Nevertheless, there is some funky stuff going on w/ voter turnout numbs vs. total votes counted in some Florida voting places, and some real concerns involving the business and political connections of those who run the companies which designed the machines in question, which makes me suspect there _is_ something fishy going on. -Kris ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/6 "2004-11-06T21:45:02Z")
1. Because no systemic problems have been proven. 2. Because the left has a storied history of blatant lying, and I certainly wouldn’t put it past them to lie regarding this matter. 3. Probably because the pretty graph is on the _Air America_ website. 4. Sure. But a quote from [holypoopihatebush.org](http://holypoopihatebush.org) does not prove systemic problems. If I may, this isn’t healthy. You guys need to accept the results; concocting these outlandish stories isn’t going to change anything, and in the long run just keeps you in a state of childish denial. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/7 "2004-11-06T21:49:27Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > 1. Sure. But a quote from [holypoopihatebush.org](http://holypoopihatebush.org) does not prove systemic problems. > > If I may, this isn’t healthy. You guys need to accept the results; concocting these outlandish stories isn’t going to change anything, and in the long run just keeps you in a state of childish denial. CNN and other reputable news sources are reporting these types of shennanigans (all mysteriously in Bush’s favor) now. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/8 "2004-11-06T21:53:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > CNN and other reputable news sources are reporting these types of shennanigans (all mysteriously in Bush’s favor) now. See, that is what I am talking about. [One non-result-changing glitch was found.](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html) And yet you want me to freak over it? Pffft. I swear, it’s like watching kids in denial over their cancelled trip to Disneyland. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/9 "2004-11-06T22:01:25Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > See, that is what I am talking about. [One non-result-changing glitch was found.](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html) And yet you want me to freak over it? Pffft. I swear, it’s like watching kids in denial over their cancelled trip to Disneyland. It’s like a lot of concerned citizens fearing what the next 4+ years will bring for our country. As an aside, one non-result changing glitch that _was_ found may point to other glitches that may or may not be result changing. That is why it is a big deal. Obviously must have slipped your mind. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/10 "2004-11-06T22:02:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Because that’s the default assumption. Why do you assume they were? I don’t. But it’s as sensible a way as any to explain the difference between two data sets. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/11 "2004-11-06T22:07:46Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I don’t. But it’s as sensible a way as any to explain the difference between two data sets. Explain a motive for thousands of people - unorganized - to tell the same lie. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/12 "2004-11-06T22:08:53Z")
Of course, it didn’t occur to Stoid that the exit polls themselves were rigged. But [Dick Morris thinks so](http://www.thehill.com/morris/110404.aspx). Myself, I think the election’s over. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/13 "2004-11-06T22:22:10Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > CNN and other reputable news sources are reporting these types of shennanigans (all mysteriously in Bush’s favor) now. All in the President’s favor, huh? In [Carteret County, North Carolina](http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-04-votes-lost_x.htm), 4530 votes were lost. Not miscounted and later corrected. Not misplaced and found. Lost forever and ever because of a screwup over the version of the machine in use and its memory requirements. There’s not fixing it – those 4530 people are just disenfranchised this time. Carteret County, ex those votes, went [69-30 for the President](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/NC/P/00/county.000.html#37031). Do you suppose that the loss of those votes lost tended to favor or disfavor Bush? The fact is that there just doesn’t exist any evidence of a systematic plot anywhere in the nation which favors one candidate or another. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/14 "2004-11-06T23:33:42Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > 1. Because no systemic problems have been proven. > > 2. Because the left has a storied history of blatant lying, and I certainly wouldn’t put it past them to lie regarding this matter. Cite. And who are “they”, seeing as this has been reported all over the place. > [@](#): > > If I may, this isn’t healthy. You guys need to accept the results; why, so they can do it again? This isn’t about reversing these results, its about making sure that the process itself is transparant and tamper proof. It isn’t currently. It’s been asked before and I’ll ask again: why wouldn’t you want that? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/15 "2004-11-06T23:40:00Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Of course, it didn’t occur to Stoid that the exit polls themselves were rigged. > > But [Dick Morris thinks so](http://www.thehill.com/morris/110404.aspx). > > Myself, I think the election’s over. Youre a pretty smart, pragmatic guy, Sam, not one I’d accuse of wearing a tinfoil hat. Do you not see a huge difference between an organized conspiracy of hundreds of people all over the country, as well as the news networks themselves, (biased exit polls) vs. some (almost) invisible computer tweaking done on unauditable machines by at most a handful of people, maybe just one or two? The former actually seems more likely to you than the latter? Really? Honestly? No shit? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/16 "2004-11-06T23:58:40Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Cite. And who are “they”, seeing as this has been reported all over the place. Your delusions of vote-fraud have _not_ been reported all over the place, because they did not occur! All we have _actual proof_ of are some minor glitches here and there, non of which ultimately made an iota of difference. Trying to magically expand those via the [holypoopihatebush.org](http://holypoopihatebush.org) route doesn’t constitute _proof_. Not by a long shot. > [@](#): > > why, so they can do it again? No, because the _reality_ of the situation is that GW Bush won the elections by a 34 vote margin in the electoral college, and a 3.5 million margin in the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/17 "2004-11-06T23:59:40Z")
Several things speak against such a conspiracy theory. First, of course, is the fact that its a conspiracy. Conspiracy leaks. This conspiracy would involve breathtaking cynicism amongst all the particpants. Some of our political opponents are, in truth, cynics, perfectly willing to subvert our democracy to gain their ends. But not all, not even a majority. And it would only take one attack of conscience to blow the whole plot right out of the water, to disastrous effect: the honest conservatives would never accept such behavior, the conspirators would have a permanent case of political leprosy. Second, you would have to bugger not just one complex system, but many, and in many places at the same instant. Evil geniuses exist only in fantasy, in real life, evil men are usually stupid and venal. Thank the Goddess! I nonetheless think that our voting system is a scandal and a shame, that a nation as rich and smart as ours cannot deal with such a pedestrian problem. But now that the Forces of Darkness see that a clean and abundant turnout can work to their advantage…I suspect a born-again committment to full voter participation. Self-interest never fails. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/18 "2004-11-07T00:10:49Z")
my own HO is if this election was rigged, it was done by the dems, as Kerry was never ment to win to provide a good shot of a Hillary dynasty. Actually I suspect that something big is happening, the former ‘power structure’ that controled the media is now colapsing as alternative media and the people themselves are pointing out that the conventonal media is not and can not ever be fair and objective, and in fact is left slanted. again just my humble O ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/19 "2004-11-07T00:19:27Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Your delusions of vote-fraud have _not_ been reported all over the place, because they did not occur! All we have _actual proof_ of are some minor glitches here and there, non of which ultimately made an iota of difference. Trying to magically expand those via the [holypoopihatebush.org](http://holypoopihatebush.org) route doesn’t constitute _proof_. Not by a long shot. And we should just assume those votes are valid why? At last count, there were over 1,000 reports of problems of varying degrees of severity. Is it your contention that we should just shrug, say oh well, and ignore it? Even if investigation proves problems that can and should be solved before the next election? And if so…why? > [@](#): > > No, because the _reality_ of the situation is that GW Bush won the elections by a 34 vote margin in the electoral college, and a 3.5 million margin in the popular vote. Votes that may have been stolen. If they were, I want to know because I want to prevent any further theft by anyone, ever. I’ve always believed that the United States has the most trustworthy system anywhere. That’s no longer true. That’s not ok with me. Why is it with you? jsut because you got what you wanted? Don’t you have an ounce of pride in your country’s intergrity and honor? Are you willing to have it any slimy way you can? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397/20 "2004-11-07T00:21:04Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > At last count, there were over 1,000 reports of problems of varying degrees of severity… According to…? (And here we see if you can pass the [holypoopihatebush.org](http://holypoopihatebush.org) test!) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-questions-for-bush-supporters/273397.md?page=2)