Electric airplanes

You’ve forgotten about reserves I think. You would need the full 5000 kg to allow for a diversion to a (close) alternate airport and landing with a minimum reserve battery charge.

That means you only have 4500 kg payload available which is approximately 45 people. There is also the issue of landing weight. The ATR 72 max landing weight is less than the max structural take off weight, and seeing as you wouldn’t lose any weight en route the max take off weight would need to be reduced to match the landing weight. You’d lose another 650 kg of payload, or six and a half people.

That’s not to say it isn’t doable, but doing straight battery for fuel swaps on existing aircraft don’t give very encouraging results.

don’t forget the landing weight is less than takeoff weight. If the battery weight remains the same then you’ll have to knock off about 450 kg of the takeoff weight on an ATR-72 600 to compensate.

And short distances mean you’re carrying around max weight of fuel so the efficiency goes down.

I see Richard Pearse beat me to the landing weight issue.

i’ll add that this will also limit payload at high altitude fields because the battery weight stays the same. Since the batteries are going to take up more space I imagine they will load them pallet style. So I guess you could download power to save weight.

That’s all fair. Again, this is just napkin math. I’ll be pleased if my calcs are within a factor of 2 of the real thing, and very pleased if it’s within 20%.

As noted by dtilque and others, there’s plenty more to be done on the aircraft side. Lots of stuff that doesn’t make sense on hydrocarbon power may start to make sense on an EV. And airplanes really have a lot more design freedom than cars, so we’ll likely see more interesting approaches there.

Lots of discussion of batteries in this thread, but the only folks I know of who are seriously developing systems for larger aircraft are looking at fuel cells.

Even if you solve energy storage and conversion, there’s still the issue of higher-voltage DC power electronics. High potential helps keep the weight of copper down.

But they’re working on it.

Actually I noticed I dropped some factor in my estimation and the battery weight should be much higher.

OTOH there’s another easy advantage to the battery ATR: the battery ATR could do a zero torque descent without using any electricity for propulsion, while the PW127 could still use some 100kg of fuel on a zero torque descent. A direct 100kg fuel weight advantage, meaning a 1000+kg battery weight advantage.

Still even if an electric ATR-72 consumed some 2MWh on a 1hr flight then that would be 8000kg of today’s batteries.

There are already small electric airplanes that have a 1hr endurance with an appropriate payload (e.g. 2 persons) but turning today’s ATR-72 into a battery electric plane as a straight conversion does not seem realistic.

BTW for the time being I agree with Ruken, liquid hydrogen seems to be a realistic present-day tech to make emission-free airplanes that are equally capable as today. That would actually have a lower fuel weight for the energy content. Although fuel volume and fuel tank weight would be higher. You could even run today’s gas turbines on hydrogen, although fuel cells plus electric motors should be much more efficient.

In the longer term there are no laws of physics against much better (higher specific energy) batteries or much less energy consuming aircraft architectures.

Or even better, regenerate electricity on the descents, just like EVs regenerate power while breaking.

Someone suggested upthread that the FAA will have problems approving a plane with a large battery because of the possibility of battery fires. Wouldn’t they have even more of a problem with hydrogen fuel?

I mentioned fuel cells. I didn’t say anything about hydrogen. You have a wide choice in fuels; hydrogen fuel cells are just more developed.

But it’s a bitch to store, hence the work on hydrocarbons, ammonia, etc.

You could still have a combustion generator of your choice. The point is that electrification has some benefits. Liquid fuels have some benefits. Besides energy density, you use them up. Drained batteries are heavy.

I don’t think this has been posted but the timing of this CBC article today seemed perfect:

First electric seaplane flies.

**Muffin **mentioned the upcoming attempt in post 42, but it’s cool to see that it worked successfully.

I’m not that familiar with the certification process that that electric Beaver will have to go through. It’s in Canada. Does Canada have its own certification process or do they just use the FAA? If the former, if someone wants to use one of these in the US, do they have to go through the whole certification process all over again?

Yay! How appropriate that it was a Beaver!

Liquid hydrogen isn’t an energy source; it’s an energy storage medium. If you’re using coal to make electricity to hydrolyze water for hydrogen, your emissions are going to be uglier overall than just burning chemical fuel in a gas turbine. There are better ways to make hydrogen, but you can’t assume that non-internal-combustion power is emission-free.

Airframe efficiency is already quite good. Efficiency improvements are inherently asymptotic because maximum efficiency is dictated by physical laws. We’ve come so far in reducing drag that we simply can’t improve subsonic efficiency very much in absolute terms.

So in a manner of speaking, the laws of physics do prevent us from building planes that consume “much less energy” than current planes do.

Canada and the U.S. have a reciprocal certification agreement - if an airplane is certified in either country, it is legal to fly in both.

However… If the airplane is a retrofit to the Beaver, then it wouldn’t necessarily be a new certification, but rather a supplemental type certificate (STC), similar to kits that will convert a Beaver to turboprop. It’s not clear from the article exactly what they are trying to do.

Looking up the specs of this thing kind of makes the point I made earlier. They filled the entire cabin with batteries, right up to gross weight, which gives the plane an endurance of a whopping 15 minutes, with a 25 minute reserve. They are hoping that with better batteries mounted underneath the fuselage they can get a 30 minute range with a 30 minute reserve.

This might work for them because of the very special use case for the plane: Making short hops of less than half an hour, in VFR conditions only, to ferry small numbers of people between closely spaced islands.

But again, consider that a Beaver is a plane designed to carry about 2,000 lbs of load about 455 miles plus reserve, or an endurance of about 4.5 hours, using a fairly inefficient radial engine that dates to the 1930’s. Those engines are heavy and have large frontal drag, so replacing them with electric should be a bigger improvement than replacing something like a PT-6 turboprop.

And yet, the conversion to electric, even if their planned battery upgrade works out, removes much of the useful load and reduces its range from 455 miles to about 70 miles. That airplane would be useless for almost all the roles it was designed for. It might work for their specific use case of short hops in clear weather, but that remains to be seen. Issues of safety, charging, inspecting and other certification problems may yet trip them up. And going for an STC is much easier than certifying an entirely new plane.

Yes, because taking a 60 year old seaplane airframe designed for piston engines, adding a zeroth-generation electric drive system, with cells that aren’t at current state of the art levels, and still managing to come up with a practical vehicle somehow proves that electric planes are a dead end.

This is a very cool first step but it’s like someone retrofitting an electric drive into a first-gen Ford Mustang and getting a 50 mile range out of it. Not a bad demo and a taste of things to come. But also nowhere close to what you’d get if you designed a electric vehicle to start with.

And just like electric cars, electric planes don’t have to be all things to all people to be useful. They don’t have to fit into the exact same niches. In fact they’ll create their own niches due to their differing economics. It’s hard to predict *how *it’ll be different other than to say that it will.

A typical commercial jet has a glide ratio of 15-20 to 1, while a good glider might be 60:1.

Obviously, both vehicles are highly optimized for their particular circumstances. When you change the constraints and the various tradeoffs, the optimized vehicle looks different.

There’s no reason to think that a commercial jet or turboprop would optimize to the same thing as an electric plane. In fact it’s pretty obvious that it won’t. Lower running costs will mean electrics can afford higher capital costs, which will enable lighter materials and lower speeds. The differing weight distribution will change the relationship between wing length/shape/area to the fuselage. And so on.

Airframes are expensive to develop and qualify, so the first electric planes will be conversions, as we’ve already seen. But that’s just the first halting, experimental step toward planes that cover a broader range of applications.

It’s nice that you’re optimistic about the future of electric aircraft, but this is handwaving. What materials are you anticipating that will be workable for electric aircraft that aren’t workable for turbine-powered ones? Exactly what efficiencies are to be gained from “differing weight distributions?”

I agree.

Again: I see that you’re optimistic, but I don’t see a compelling reason for that optimism. I expect electric aircraft to be common in 20-30 years, but in a limited role (primarily due to the energy-density problem, especially for long-haul routes).

What structural/aero/whatever efficiencies do you anticipate that are unavailable to turbine-powered aircraft? I don’t see many, and all you’ve offered so far are generalities.

It’s hard to offer anything beyond generalities and theory because it’s so early in the research process. Of course, we can start with the OP’s link:

  • Use the fact that electric motors are granular and distribute many of them across the wing. This improves low-speed lift and allows a relatively shorter wing.
  • Also put motors on the wingtips. These can be sized for cruise, due to the extra power available from the distributed motors. They reduce losses from wingtip vortices.
  • Make the whole thing out of composites.

One thing I’d like to see is the use of the cells as structural material. I don’t know exactly what form this would take–that’s a research program in and of itself. But one possibility would be to form the cells into long rods that could stiffen the wings or fuselage. Cells come in many form factors, one of them cylindrical–and cylinders are pretty good structural components. One could put a number of individual cells into each unit.

I was serious before when I mentioned sodium power cabling. It’s not completely unheard of; in fact there’s a paper on the subject from 1967. It is significantly lighter than aluminum.

Superconductors? It may happen. The equipment is liable to be expensive and heavy, but the tradeoffs here need to be explored. It may make a good pairing with a cryogenic hydrogen fuel cell craft (use the hydrogen to cool the superconductors).

Overall, there’s likely to be a greater trend toward “unobtainium” (i.e., expensive but high performance materials). Carbon fiber everywhere; in the seats, the toilet bowl, wherever. Airplanes never want to be heavier than necessary, but in the end there is always a point where they can save one more kilogram for X dollars, and they have to decide whether it’s a worthwhile tradeoff. For electric planes, the tradeoff is completely different: the “fuel” barely costs anything, but that kilogram could have gone to batteries. Does lightening the plane open up a new route?

I’m interested in the altitude/efficiency tradeoff. Electric motors don’t need air, so it should be possible to fly higher than traditional craft. Does it make sense to go to 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k feet?

The speed/efficiency tradeoff is also interesting. My intuition tells me one wants to go as slowly as possible (due to the v^2 drag term). But induced drag goes down as the speed goes up, so it might end up being better to go fast, especially if one can reduce parasitic drag (like with the X-57’s short wing). If parasitic drag is the dominant factor, what can be done to reduce that–narrow but long fuselages, for instance? Low friction coatings?

Generally speaking, there’s a many dimensional design space to explore with entirely new tradeoffs. Aircraft *already *come in a huge variety; it would be absurd to expect that electric planes somehow hit exactly the same designs. And in any case, the overall technology level of aircraft is progressing (though slowly).

Incidentally, NASA is hoping to achieve a five-fold efficiency increase over comparable craft with the X-57. We aren’t talking small factors here. And that’s just one fairly narrow research program; many others are also working on the problem. I’m looking forward to what others come up with.

I recallthisfrom a recent airshow. I’m no technical expert but it seems like a ground-up design optimised for electric propulsion. 9 seater, 300mph, >600 mile range with purchase costs around the same and operating costs perhaps a fifth of an equivalent conventional plane.

Caveats abound of course. This is a small plane, with limited range and capacity but they have orders on the books and have attracted funding so certainly they seem serious but, it hasn’t flown yet. Test flights are slated for next year so it remains to be seen if it works. If so, this is the sort of starting point that can establish the financial and operational viability and a more relevant vehicle from which we can extrapolate, more so than a retro-fitted Beaver (oooo-errr missus!)

Yeah but this is also true for batteries. If you use coal power to charge the batteries then they are not emission-free either. Of course I want to see emission free hydrogen production, ammonia production, battery production, fuel cell production, airframe production, battery recycling, etc.etc… emission-free everything.

My thought was that there is no limit on L/D in the laws of physics. Theoretically you can have arbitrarily low drag for a given aircraft weight.

In fact, airframe efficiency of “common” aircraft is still very poor today, compared to what is clearly possible.

Look at the Eviation Alice linked by Novelty Bubble, looking at the specs it must have half the cruise power compared to an ATR-72 or Piaggio Avanti relative to the weight, while still maintaining comparable cruise speed! The Solar Impulse 2 only needs a tiny fraction (less than a tenth) of the cruise power but obviously at the cost of a very low cruise speed.

Can’t wait to see the Eviation Alice fly!