# Electric cars: why not removable batteries? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232 "2017-10-18T15:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/61 "2017-10-21T18:11:55Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I thought it was pretty obvious that we were talking about modern long-range EVs made possible by lithium-ion batteries. Early EV’s faced the same market 100 years ago and that was before there were gas stations on every corner. > [@scr4](#): > > And NOBODY is suggesting that EVs will completely **replace** ICE cars in the foreseeable future, I have repeatedly said they will dominate ICE cars in the near future. And I’ve prefaced it with the addition of fast charge batteries. Utility and cost are major driving forces in any purchase and that will hold true with cars. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/62 "2017-10-21T18:55:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Early EV’s faced the same market 100 years ago and that was before there were gas stations on every corner. And what does that have to do with the discussion in this thread?? > [@](#): > > Utility and cost are major driving forces in any purchase and that will hold true with cars. And for most drivers, “utility” doesn’t mean ultra-fast charging. For most drivers, a car that you plug in overnight, and has 200+ range, is _more_ useful than a car that you take to a gas station (or charging station) every 300 miles. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/63 "2017-10-21T19:49:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The demand for EV’s vs ICE cars would indicate you’re wrong. > > It’s not just the length of the drive, it’s the number of drives stacked together. Most people use their car for more than a single destination per day. > > Again, the demand for EV’s vs ICE cars would indicate you’re wrong. > > with 100% certainty fast charging batteries will dominate battery use in the majority of devices including EV’s. > > That actually made me laugh out loud. You just got done saying people can do most of their driving without recharging. Well, you’re the one who’s wrong. The [original model S battery in the Tesla cost an estimated $56000 per car.](https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric-vehicle-battery-cost-dropped-80-6-years-227kwh-tesla-190kwh/) You cannot credibly even pretend you know what you’re talking about when the only semi-affordable EVs with batteries that don’t cost a king’s ransom have been released just this year. Relative demand ratios are meaningless when in 2016 and in every year previously, practical EVs did not exist, and the few that were on the market were so expensive that only luxury buyers could consider them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/64 "2017-10-21T20:19:46Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > And what does that have to do with the discussion in this thread?? The limiting factors are the same for both time periods and account for consumer choice in both time periods. > [@scr4](#): > > And for most drivers, “utility” doesn’t mean ultra-fast charging. Most drivers want a car that’s available on demand to drive where ever that want to go. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/65 "2017-10-21T20:48:31Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Well, you’re the one who’s wrong. The [original model S battery in the Tesla cost an estimated $56000 per car.](https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric-vehicle-battery-cost-dropped-80-6-years-227kwh-tesla-190kwh/) You cannot credibly even pretend you know what you’re talking about when the only semi-affordable EVs with batteries that don’t cost a king’s ransom have been released just this year. Relative demand ratios are meaningless when in 2016 and in every year previously, practical EVs did not exist, and the few that were on the market were so expensive that only luxury buyers could consider them. Tesla is hardly the only EV on the road. The claim has been made many times that people only drive a short distance each day therefore cars like the Volt were sufficient for the average driver and if not, the ice engine in the volt filled the gap. Big surprise, it didn’t. What is completely ignored is that a car that is charging can’t be driven. there are currently no EV’s on the road today with on-demand driving. Fast charge batteries removes that limitation. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/66 "2017-10-21T21:35:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Tesla is hardly the only EV on the road. The claim has been made many times that people only drive a short distance each day therefore cars like the Volt were sufficient for the average driver and if not, the ice engine in the volt filled the gap. **Big surprise, it didn’t**. Citation needed. Lots of the volt buyers are happy with the purchase. The problem with the Volt is that GM doesn’t really make great sedans, Toyota does. It’s also an extremely complex vehicle, far more complex than a pure battery driven car. Basically, it doesn’t have a niche. Cheaper sedans sold by Toyota accomplish the same thing as the Volt. They may cost more to keep running, but a 35 mpg car isn’t too hard on the wallet. SUVs and trucks do things the Volt can’t do and look cooler. Luxury cars are more impressive. The Prius is more reliable and cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/67 "2017-10-21T21:59:37Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Citation needed. Lots of the volt buyers are happy with the purchase. All 5 of them? After being dubbed car of the year they are a rare sight on the street. > [@SamuelA](#): > > The problem with the Volt is that GM doesn’t really make great sedans, Toyota does. It’s also an extremely complex vehicle, far more complex than a pure battery driven car. That’s an odd thing to say right after you said lots of the volt buyers are happy with the purchase. And it’s no more complex than a Prius. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/68 "2017-10-21T22:06:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > there are currently no EV’s on the road today with on-demand driving. On the contrary; EVs are the _only_ cars on the road with “on demand” driving–they’re the only cars you can get into in the morning and _know_ you have hundreds of miles of range without having to think about it. There’s no need to leave for work 10 minutes early because the tank is empty or have to take some other route to your destination because there’s otherwise no station on the way. To answer the OP: it’s one of those solutions that sounds reasonable until you look at the behavior of EV owners. In short, they don’t care. They may think they care before purchasing, but they quickly realize that as long as they have somewhat fast charging (say, under an hour), the motivation to reduce that further is almost zero. In part because the battery swap only matters on relatively uncommon road trips, and in part because taking a forced break isn’t really a huge cost. Especially since the swap costs real dollars (on the order of a normal gas fillup; say $50-60). For all but extremely wealthy people, being delayed 40 minutes to save $50 is a fantastic deal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/69 "2017-10-21T22:58:47Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > On the contrary; EVs are the _only_ cars on the road with “on demand” driving–they’re the only cars you can get into in the morning and _know_ you have hundreds of miles of range without having to think about it. Actually no. You have to think about charging it the night before. In fact you HAVE to think about charging it the night before. Ice cars are ready to go regardless of how much fuel is in them because there are gas stations everywhere. And while your EV is charging to get to work it’s not available to drive. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/70 "2017-10-21T23:24:17Z")
You don’t think about it because you _always_ do it. It takes five seconds to plug in and (for homeowners at least) takes place in the comfort of your garage. There’s zero downside to keeping the battery topped off. I don’t care if my car isn’t available because _I’m sleeping_. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/71 "2017-10-21T23:41:46Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > You don’t think about it because you _always_ do it. It takes five seconds to plug in and (for homeowners at least) takes place in the comfort of your garage. There’s zero downside to keeping the battery topped off. I don’t care if my car isn’t available because _I’m sleeping_. No, people don’t \*always \*do anything just before they go to bed. forget that chore and the car goes nowhere. Unlike an ICE car. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/72 "2017-10-22T00:03:15Z")
“chore”? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/73 "2017-10-22T00:20:01Z")
Indeed I have forgotten to plug in I think maybe twice over the past five years of owning my plug in hybrid. Given it can also run on gas it was merely annoying that my daily commuting twenty miles was that day on gas. Horrors if I had BEV with a 200 plus range. I would have started out with maybe only 160 plus more miles of range than I needed for my daily commute instead of 180 plus more. Granted most commuters commute more like forty miles a day, but even call it eighty as the usual commute. For that one day that person forgets to plug in, and maybe forgets the chore of brushing their teeth, the car the next goes … to work and back just fine. The convenience and time savings of not going to the gas station (or for me with a PHEV only fairly rarely going to gas station) is _huge_. The inconvenience of plugging in whenever I pull in my driveway as a matter of course is zip. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/74 "2017-10-22T01:11:22Z")
Also, the car could just text message you if you don’t plug it in and you’re parked next to a charger. It’s not a whole lot of smarts to add that feature. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/75 "2017-10-22T01:36:28Z")
**DSeid** said it as well as anyone. Your concerns just aren’t a problem in real life. Forgetting to plug in is as rare as forgetting your keys, and the consequences are less. Forgetting to plug my phone in is a way bigger deal. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/76 "2017-10-22T02:17:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actually no. You have to think about charging it the night before. No. Every time I come home, I plug it in. That’s it. There’s nothing to think about. It’s just habit. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/77 "2017-10-22T02:25:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All 5 of them? After being dubbed car of the year they are a rare sight on the street. Production number has nothing to do with customer satisfaction. And Volts and Teslas do have very [high customer satisfaction:](https://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/09/1-2-3-3-electric-cars-top-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-survey/) > [@](#): > > The Tesla Model S is the most satisfying car for commuting, according to the most recent Annual Auto Survey from Consumer Reports. > > Following closely on the first place position held by the Tesla offering are two of the other top-selling electric vehicles out there — the Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid (PHEV) and the Nissan LEAF all-electric (EV). The Chevy Volt ranked second overall, and the Nissan LEAF third overall. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/78 "2017-10-22T04:43:41Z")
Stanford researchers explored the possibility of induction-charging roadways. There is not really any reason that electric cars could not be outfitted for parked induction (wireless) charging. You could get a coil embedded in your garage floor, along with a floor switch triggered by a tire. You would never have to remember to plug in. As long as the charger can do at least 20 miles per hour, you will never have to worry about not having enough juice (you do not plug in when you go to bed anyway, you plug in right when you park). What we really ought to be looking at right now is the grid. If we really expect as much as 50% more electric traffic in a decade, we should be making sure, right now, that the utilities can cover that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/79 "2017-10-22T05:52:58Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Production number has nothing to do with customer satisfaction. uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232/80 "2017-10-22T06:09:53Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What we really ought to be looking at right now is the grid. If we really expect as much as 50% more electric traffic in a decade, we should be making sure, right now, that the utilities can cover that. ding ding ding. We have a winner. We’ve been beaten over the head with global warming announcements from world leaders for years. It’s all lip service when it comes to the obvious need for increased power capacity. When fast charge batteries hit the market there will be a major swing in consumer demand for electricity. By default that will drive up the cost of electricity and delay the transition to EV’s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-cars-why-not-removable-batteries/799232.md?page=5)