# Electric Sun **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586 "2006-07-08T02:15:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/281 "2006-07-19T18:34:34Z")
[Quote=TheFonz] > [@](#): > > Not quite. The asteroid belt is basically a planet that failed to coalesce because of tidal forces from Jupiter. Any pair of those asteroids trying to stick together from their mutual gravity will quickly (in astronomical terms) be separated again. Prove it. [/Quote] DUDE! That’s unfair. There aren’t many pretty pictures available that show the influence of gravity on a bunch of asteroids! ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/282 "2006-07-19T19:26:52Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] > [@](#): > > The asteroid belt is basically a planet that failed to coalesce because of tidal forces from Jupiter. Any pair of those asteroids trying to stick together from their mutual gravity will quickly (in astronomical terms) be separated again. Prove it. [/quote] [Proof, Fonzie-style…](http://www.brainjar.com/java/games/asteroids/) Ayyyyyy… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/283 "2006-07-19T19:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] But yes, they are controlling the weather. [/QUOTE] Would “they” be natural forces mainstream science misunderstands – or a group of people? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/284 "2006-07-19T21:10:35Z")
**BrainGlutton** In the context of my post, **The Fonz** is referring to a group of people who form a powerful conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/285 "2006-07-19T21:32:24Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] **BrainGlutton** In the context of my post, **The Fonz** is referring to a group of people who form a powerful conspiracy. [/QUOTE] Finally something I can get my teeth into! 🙂 Which conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/286 "2006-07-19T21:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Unless I see \*\*TheFonz \*\* explaining or replying to **Angua** ’s post #244, there is nothing else to see here. When your evidence is misleading, then your theories will be too **TheFonz**. [/QUOTE] Hey **Fonz**? Did you miss this or are you ignoring it? ---
**Author:** ![MagicXylophone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MagicXylophone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicXylophone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/287 "2006-07-19T22:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] You know what? They sure don’t. **Those poor people, driven mad by what they know.** I can tell you there are times when knowing what I do feels like such a heavy burden. It sucks, really, and I wish I could go back to not knowing. But yes, they are controlling the weather. [/QUOTE] edited for length and bolding mine. I am a secretary at a mental health clinic for the chronically, dually-diagnosed adult population of a particularly poor suburb of Denver. As such, I have experience with paranoid, psychotic schizophrenics and their belief systems. Your statement, which I have bolded, does nothing short of trivialize their extremely debilitating condition. They were not driven mad by some conspiracy they uncovered. They were driven mad by traumatic events, genetics, and predisposition to the condition (lots more, I know, but I’m trying to be concise). Suggesting what you appear to be suggesting (that they are just smarter than the rest of us) smacks of illusions of grandeur, and is extremely telling of what, in all likelihood, you have: paranoid, dillusional schizophrenia. That is, if you are not a troll. Aside from your obvious delusions, you have repeatedly violated the rules of this board. My guest membership aside, I have lurked for a while now, and I’m surprised this bs even got this far. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/288 "2006-07-19T22:46:10Z")
[QUOTE=MagicXylophone] Your statement, which I have bolded, does nothing short of trivialize their extremely debilitating condition. [/QUOTE] Sounds to me more like he’s **aggrandizing** their condition. Not that that’s any better – or any more realistic. ---
**Author:** ![MagicXylophone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MagicXylophone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicXylophone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/289 "2006-07-19T22:48:34Z")
True… now that I think about it, it seems like he’s more jealous of them than anything. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/290 "2006-07-19T22:53:19Z")
[Quote=TheFonz] > [@](#): > > How do these beliefs differ from the stereotypical paranoid schizophrenic? You know what? They sure don’t. Those poor people, driven mad by what they know. I can tell you there are times when knowing what I do feels like such a heavy burden. It sucks, really, and I wish I could go back to not knowing. But yes, they are controlling the weather. [/Quote] Just to add a little something to \*\*Xylophone’s \*\* thoughts: The fact of the matter is, **TheFonz** that you don’t even “know” anything. As far as you have shown your cards, you’re just a parrot of other people’s ideas. You have no original ideas of your own, which makes you not a “knowledgeable” or wise person, but, at best, someone’s acolyte, and a very bad one at that. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/291 "2006-07-19T22:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Are you kidding me? [http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/unaguave/mars\_topography.jpg](http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/unaguave/mars_topography.jpg) Look at the topography. The north is relatively smooth, the south looks like it has pizza-face. [/quote] The north half of Mars still has oodles of craters. If Mars had undergone a catastrophic “biting” event in the past few millennia, these would be gone. The exact reason for Mars’s surface asymmetry is not yet known I don’t think, but here’s a brief [comment](http://edmall.gsfc.nasa.gov/99invest.Site/science-briefs/mola-near/ed-mars.html) on the question: > [@](#): > > The south pole has a higher elevation than the north pole by about 6 km. The cause of this dominant topographic difference; of why the surface is thin-crusted, low, and smooth in the north and thick-crusted, high, and crater-scarred in the south, is debated by planetary scientists. The MOLA [Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter] data points to internal processes, where a huge plume of molten rock rising from the interior may have caused melting and thinning of the northern crust. Another possible explanation, that of an asteroid impact, is not supported by MOLA data. Given the choice of two explanations — (1) Venus swooped by and took a bite out of Mars, or (2) Mars shaped its own surface by its own geologic activity (though with some interesting north-south asymmetry) — I would favor the second, simpler, more plausible one. But I’ll also accept that planetary geologists just don’t know the answer yet. I’ll willing to wait until a well supported answer comes in. The “wandering Venus” hypothesis, on the other hand, is _not_ well supported, or even supported at all. Also, I would again point out that Earth has a similar asymmetry: lots of land in the northern hemisphere, much less in the southern. Did Venus do that too? Or, if Earth can be a little lopsided for no remarkable reason, why can’t Mars? [QUOTE=TheFonz] What’s I’m wondering is how lava channels create features like this: [http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/unaguave/051111lavachannels.gif](http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/unaguave/051111lavachannels.gif) There are scoops and gouges, but also lots of little pits around. This can be attributed to the varying air pressure and strengths of the discharge. The atmosphere of Mars was being sucked up by Venus at the time, so there were lots of lightning strikes when there weren’t any **plasma tornadoes** burning away the surface. [/quote] A geologist might be able to answer for those surface features. I bet there’s an answer that doesn’t require another planet’s passing by, or lots of lightning in an atmosphere that’s had hardly any clouds for eons, or plasma tornados (whatever those would be) — especially since these gouges, pits, and channels exist on other bodies of the solar system. ([Europa](http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/galileo/gallery/europa-orbit1.cfm), for instance.) Did Venus go around visiting most of solar system, wreaking havoc everywhere? > [@Bytegeist](#): > > The asteroid belt is basically a planet that failed to coalesce because of tidal forces from Jupiter. Any pair of those asteroids trying to stick together from their mutual gravity will quickly (in astronomical terms) be separated again. [QUOTE=TheFonz] Prove it. [/quote] Here’s a rough back-of-the-envelope calculation. Assume two spherical asteroids each 10 km in diameter, made of generic rock. That puts their masses at roughly 3x10[sup]15[/sup] kg each. Even in the densest part of the main asteroid belt, at about 2.5 to 3 AU from the Sun, there are only about 6000 asteroids per cubic AU. The typical distance between nearest neighbors will normally be over 100,000 km. Using the above, the [gravitational force](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/GravitationalForce.html) between these two neighboring asteroids, tending to attract them together, will be about 60,000 N. Jupiter, with a mass of 2x10[sup]27[/sup] kg, orbits the Sun at just over 5 AU. At closest approach, our pair of asteroids will get to within 2 to 2.5 AU of Jupiter. Bump it up to 3 AU though, for a weaker tidal force, for a distance of 4.5x10[sup]11[/sup] m. Then the tidal force from Jupiter (see [tidal acceleration](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/TidalAcceleration.html)), tending to pull the asteroids apart, is about 880,000 N. Higher than the mutual gravitational attraction. Obviously this is only one set of assumptions. You can play around inside the space of possible values, and even get some scenarios where the gravitational force outweighs the tidal force. That doesn’t mean the asteroid belt is going to accumulate into a planet anytime soon though, or that it ever was one. Mostly, when asteroids interact, they collide and smash themselves up into smaller bits. Perhaps the most basic reason for assuming the asteroid belt was never a planet is that there simply [isn’t enough of the stuff](http://home.case.edu/~sjr16/advanced/asteroid.html) to make one anyway. > [@](#): > > Most current theories hold that asteroids are bits and pieces left over from the formation of the solar system. They are also formed from other asteroids as they collide and break apart, as comets disintegrate, or even when the outer moons of the larger planets collide. Past theories have suggested that the asteroids are remnants of a planet that was destroyed early in the solar system’s history. However, that theory is no longer held in much regard, for if all of the asteroids in the belt were combined, they would form a body less than 1500 km (932 miles) in diameter – less than half the size of Earth’s moon, and so there is not enough material to make a planet. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/292 "2006-07-20T01:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=MagicXylophone] That is, if you are not a troll. [/QUOTE] Suggestions that another poster are a troll, used as in insult, are permitted only in the **BBQ Pit**. Actual suspicion that another poster is trolling should be reported to the staff. No accusations of trolling are permitted in Fora outside the **BBQ Pit**. In this case, the evidence seems to indicate a poster with an odd world view combined with a belief in conspiracies. Neither of these conditions are grounds for banishment. (If odd beliefs were grounds for expulsion, we could organize many of the atheists to have all the religious folk banned and many of the religious folk organized to have the atheists banned and then close the board.) At this point, you are free to amuse yourself reading **TheFonz** ’s odd claims or avoid frustration by not opening these threads, however, name-calling is not an option. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![MagicXylophone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MagicXylophone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicXylophone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/293 "2006-07-20T01:58:40Z")
Sorry. I thought I had seen such jabs somewhere in this thread before, but I may/am be thinking about the pit thread on this topic. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/294 "2006-07-20T03:40:00Z")
Hm. We now have two sites from which Fonz seems to get much of his ideas. Perhaps if we examined _their_ claims, as Fonz seems completely unable to follow a single topic or idea, we might explore the issues with the ‘electric universe’ theory with a bit more specificity. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/295 "2006-07-20T03:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Hm. We now have two sites from which Fonz seems to get much of his ideas. Perhaps if we examined _their_ claims, as Fonz seems completely unable to follow a single topic or idea, we might explore the issues with the ‘electric universe’ theory with a bit more specificity. [/QUOTE] The Thurderbolts site seemed kind of useless (I found it by googling the other day) – it appeared to offer the same broad general explanations we’ve seen here, along with the excuses for not presenting theory (“Math is hard!”) But googling also found this site: > **[Gravity attracts ... but](https://www.the-electric-universe.info/welcome.html)** > > Physics knows four forces. However, the 20 th century was convinced that one of the them the electric force plays no macroscopic role in the Universe. For example, positively charged atoms exist, but positively charged stars should not exist. At least this one seems to be attempting to offer more in the way of explanation. Whether an evaluation of those explanations would turn up anything worthwhile, I can’t say – I am not a physicist, and it’s been a long time since I’ve studied any physics. But at least there’s more material on this site. Especially if you look at the “Scripts” link. Some of the links inside there are just references to the book that presumably this whole theory is hawking, but there are also some “scripts” that have more than just references to “the book”. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/296 "2006-07-20T20:53:05Z")
Hey tomndebb, why did you remove my post with the link to the [hq.nasa.gov](http://hq.nasa.gov) site talking about Saturn’s rings? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/297 "2006-07-20T21:00:33Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Hey tomndebb, why did you remove my post with the link to the [hq.nasa.gov](http://hq.nasa.gov) site talking about Saturn’s rings? [/QUOTE] He’s in on the conspiracy, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/298 "2006-07-20T21:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Hey tomndebb, why did you remove my post with the link to the [hq.nasa.gov](http://hq.nasa.gov) site talking about Saturn’s rings? [/QUOTE] I have removed no posts in this or either of your other threads. I will not delete or remove a post without noting that fact and providing a reason. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/299 "2006-07-20T21:16:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] He’s in on the conspiracy, obviously. [/QUOTE] If he is, he really needs to start coming to the meetings. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/300 "2006-07-20T21:25:41Z")
**Fonz** You have a better chance of getting a moderator’s attention by e-mailing them. Put SDMB in the subject. Off the top of my head, I’d guess some kind of copyright concern. **Bryan Ekers** While the odds of helping a paranoid schizophrenic over the internet are quite low (G Nome, Graham Wilson, The Isotope Money guy), there’s no reason to make them lower. **Fonz** for the record, the only possible conspiracy you could organize amongst Dopers would be dedicated to spreading bad puns, Monty Python quotes, and getting Futurama back on the air. At least one poster has succeeded in convincing us that something largely accepted as scientific fact was wrong. He argued, with many cites, that a certain species of giant squid (Mesonyteuthis?) was the result of sloppy science or fraud. It took him a few posts in a single thread to convince us. Another poster spent years and many threads trying to convince us of- the existence of psychic powers, ghosts, souls, reincarnation, and that he had scientific evidence of them all. He failed miserably. Don’t assume that we just don’t understand your cites. There are Dopers with degrees in physics, astrophysics and astronomy. We’ve got geologists too. We’re not blinded by accepted models. We disagree with authority all the time. Sometimes, we even question the word of Uncle Cecil. I’ve looked at your evidence and interpreted in a very different way than you. I suspect that the other posters have as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586.md?page=16)