# Electric Sun **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586 "2006-07-08T02:15:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/41 "2006-07-12T01:51:29Z")
So, are you trying to argue that Jesus was a space alien, or that he was electric powered? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/42 "2006-07-12T01:55:02Z")
> [@TheFonz](#): > > What’s actually happening is the very low pressure in the eye of a storm is the medium where these electrons are allowed to easily escape. Are compasses affected by hurricanes? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/43 "2006-07-12T02:16:57Z")
You know, I am very glad that I don’t have to deal with any wacky theories in organic chemistry. Although it would be kinda fun to see what someone managed to come up with. I’m afraid the best I can do is that there are actually five bonds to carbon, which now makes me want to do a whole “THERE! ARE! FOUR! LIGHTS!” thing. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/44 "2006-07-12T02:18:20Z")
Prove to me the fusion-core model. Prove to me warm rising air causes tornadoes. You can’t, and I wouldn’t be discussing this here if you could. With all their money and satellites and research the scientists can’t, so why are you making such a dumb request? Your “mighty” logic fails to impress me, Doc. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/45 "2006-07-12T02:19:56Z")
> [@](#): > > So, are you trying to argue that Jesus was a space alien, or that he was electric powered? Why both! The ether that the ancient Gods of past controlled was actually the electromagnetic force. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/46 "2006-07-12T02:20:21Z")
> [@TheFonz](#): > > Prove to me the fusion-core model. You’re the one who started the thread and made claims. The onus is on you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/47 "2006-07-12T02:32:43Z")
> [@TheFonz](#): > > Why both! The ether that the ancient Gods of past controlled was actually the electromagnetic force. And we know this because centuries after these “Gods” died/left the planet/whatever, artists made paintings about them that contained objects with superficial similarities to objects invented several more centures later by science fiction writers. That’s entirely plausible. > [@](#): > > Prove to me the fusion-core model. Prove to me warm rising air causes tornadoes. You can’t, and I wouldn’t be discussing this here if you could. With all their money and satellites and research the scientists can’t, so why are you making such a dumb request? Your “mighty” logic fails to impress me, Doc. I suspect that says more about you than it does about **DocCathode** ’s logic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/48 "2006-07-12T02:33:23Z")
I sense my compass question will go unanswered. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/49 "2006-07-12T02:41:00Z")
Two questions about the electric sun model: 1. If the interstellar medium is flooded with free electrons and as a result is uniformly negative, how did the sun form with such a massive positive charge that it has glowed for the last several billion years despite the constant influx of galactic electrons? Regarding the solar wind - if it is positive, and accelerated away from the sun by charge repulsion, then the charge repulsion of the sun must be enough to overcome its own gravitational attraction. So what holds the sun together? 2. Much is made of the fact that sunspots are deeper and cooler than the visible surface of the sun, which is cooler than the corona. Ignoring issues of energy density vs. temperature, how does the electical sun theory explain this? Consider this: a sphere of some material is heated at its surface by electrical discharge. The energy at the surface must be radiated both outward and inward. Over time, the interior of the sphere must reach a thermal equilibrium with the surface. If a sunspot is just a ‘hole’ or ‘dimple’ in the surface that allows us to see deeper into the sun, why don’t they appear brighter than the surface, like a blackbody radiator? (If you take a metal tube and drill a small hole in the side, then heat the tube to incandescence, the hole actually looks brighter than the solid surface, even though the interior of the tube is at the same temp as the surface.) Is there something in the sun that cools the interior? ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/50 "2006-07-12T03:36:12Z")
In regards to the compass question, does lightning create a magnetic field? What does lots and lots of cloud to ground lightning in the eye wall of a hurricane that blew up from a Cat 1 to a Cat 5 in a matter of hours mean? What do all these cyclonic storms along our equator… [![](https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/world08152004.gif) ](https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/world08152004.gif) during a geomagnetic storm… [![](https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/dst20Geomagnetic20Index20081520004.gif) ](https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/dst20Geomagnetic20Index20081520004.gif) with intense X-ray emissions… [![](https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/GOES20xray2008152004.gif) ](https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/GOES20xray2008152004.gif) mean? Pilots who fly into the eye of a hurricane often experience a static discharge while approaching the eye of a hurricane, such that it grows until that breakdown voltage is reached and with a loud POP their hair stands on end. Some of the largest electric fields over a hurricane were detected over Hurricane Emily at 8 kilovolts per meter. That’s HUGE, and that hurricane wasn’t nearly as intense as Katrina, Rita or Wilma. So why doesn’t a hurricane generate a magnetic field? It does, but it’s nothing compared to the massive magnet that is our planet. Maybe it’s because we’re not looking for them, and since the angle of observation is so wide we don’t notice them, but they have yet to be discovered. Dust devils create magnetic fields, and have electric fields in excess of 4,000 volts per meter. You can check out any of these articles. [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dust+devil+magnetic+field](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dust+devil+magnetic+field) With electric fields at 8 kilovolts, you can rest assured that hurricanes indeed generate magnetic fields. After all, it’s electro **magnetics**. I’ll get to Brossa’s questions tomorrow, I got to get some shut eye. I’m in training for my new job. 😉 P.S. I don’t mean to sound like an asshole, guys, but please be at least _somewhat_ open-minded. It would also make things a lot easier for me if you stopped demanding the impossible. All I can offer is evidence which is open for interpretation by anyone. The mainstream explanations for all these things are not fact, after all, as they have yet to be proven. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/51 "2006-07-12T04:21:54Z")
> [@TheFonz](#): > > So why doesn’t a hurricane generate a magnetic field? It does, but it’s nothing compared to the massive magnet that is our planet. Maybe it’s because we’re not looking for them, and since the angle of observation is so wide we don’t notice them, but they have yet to be discovered. I find that unconvincing. How much of a magnetic field _is_ being generated? If it’s significant at all (and with the quantity of electromagnetism you claim is involved, how could it not?) then compasses for hundreds of miles should be affected. In fact, simple triangulation of the error of several compasses would be a useful way to track a hurricane. You’ve made a claim, then came up with weasel words to explain why simple evidence for the claim can’t be found. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/52 "2006-07-12T07:02:37Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I’m not an astrophysicist, but just off the top of my head, if stars aren’t powered by fusion reactions, then where do heavy elements (heavier than lithium) come from, and what causes massive stars to blow themselves up in supernova explosions? So this is going to be one of those “I’ll just ran around and start [new threads full of nonsense](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=379277) instead of actually answering any questions anyone has about my ‘theories’” situations. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/53 "2006-07-12T13:09:59Z")
I’m sorry I haven’t been catering to you Buckner, but here is a good article about planet birthing and where the heavier elements can come from: [http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=pca22stj](http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=pca22stj) I’ll try to get to Bryan in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/54 "2006-07-12T13:37:50Z")
The [preface page](http://www.holoscience.com/preface.php) of the site linked to in **TheFonz** ’s last post is worth reading. Here’s a phrase I found amusing: > [@](#): > > science is a highly conservative captive of fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/55 "2006-07-12T14:02:03Z")
To hell with that. Any site that uses H.P. Lovecraft as inspiration for understanding the universe deserves to be eaten last. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/56 "2006-07-12T14:13:47Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > The [preface page](http://www.holoscience.com/preface.php) of the site linked to in **TheFonz** ’s last post is worth reading. Here’s a phrase I found amusing: “science is a highly conservative captive of fashion” Well, I’m trying to look good here, what with the black neoprene gauntlets, designer safety glasses, and gray lab coat. It’s not my fault some pseudoscientist has no sense of fashion. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/57 "2006-07-12T17:37:30Z")
> [@](#): > > To hell with that. Any site that uses H.P. Lovecraft as inspiration for understanding the universe deserves to be eaten last. Oh yes, because that has everything to do with the scientific theories of the site. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/58 "2006-07-12T17:49:27Z")
Well then, could we get some equations instead of old ones? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/59 "2006-07-12T17:55:35Z")
> [@TheFonz](#): > > I’m sorry I haven’t been catering to you Buckner, but here is a good article about planet birthing and where the heavier elements can come from: > [EU Views – holoscience.com | The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE®](http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=pca22stj) > > I’ll try to get to Bryan in a bit. This: > [@](#): > > Intense plasma discharges at the stellar surface give rise to starshine. Those discharges synthesize “metals” that continually rain into the star’s depths. The heavy element abundance in a star’s spectrum is not just an inheritance from old supernovae. Stellar interiors become enriched in heavy elements. The star “children” are gas giants or binary partners formed from those heavier elements after expulsion from the star. > > Therefore we should simply expect from the electric star model that the longer a star has been shining the more heavy elements it will show in its spectrum and the more time it has had to “give birth.” Is pretty vague. _Which_ heavy elements will a star show in its spectrum the longer it has been shining, and in what proportions, and why? Actual science allows for discussions like [this](http://ultraman.ssl.berkeley.edu/nucleosynthesis.html), which go into detail about why some isotopes are relatively abundant, and others not so much. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586/60 "2006-07-12T17:58:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Well then, could we get some equations instead of old ones? I’m sure that would make all the difference to you. If there are equations they’re not in my hands. From what I understand though, the equations for gravity don’t explain the motions of the galaxies. Astronomers have to supplement the observed mass with invisible “dark matter” and then they put it anywhere they want in their computer models until they match what we observe the galaxy doing. I’ll come up with some equations if you want, then you just keep bringing me your observations and if they don’t work with my equations I’ll just tack on some invisible matter until they all work. Then I’ll call it Science! OooOooOh, I just love how this stuff makes so much sense! > [@"\[thunderbolts.info](#): > > ([The Myth of Magnetic Reconnection](http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060711magnetic.htm))"] > > [The Beautiful Picture](http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/unaguave/040830magnetic.jpg) > > The Myth of Magnetic Reconnection > > Electrical engineers and plasma cosmologists will tell you that magnetic reconnection is one of the most contradictory ideas that astronomers ever derived from the mistaken belief that there are no electric currents in space. > > Astronomers today are taking pictures of something they call “magnetic reconnection” on the Sun, and space probes are measuring something else in the Earth’s magnetosphere that has also been given the same name. If you ask a plasma cosmologist about these, he’ll tell you that the astronomers don’t know what they’re talking about. They’re looking at well-understood plasma phenomena, exploding double layers and electric discharge, not magnetic reconnection. > > Which side will triumph? Here’s how it’s shaping up. Now that astronomers are looking at real phenomena rather than elegant equations, they realize that their equations aren’t as predictive as they had hoped. The magnetic reconnection equations called for a slow discharge of energy lasting for years, but the solar flares discharge in minutes with much more energy than expected. But astronomers have also noticed that whenever magnetic reconnection happens, there seem to be regions of electron-depleted space associated with it [plasma cosmologists call them electric currents.] The electron-depleted atoms are traveling at speeds of up to 1000 km/sec [which plasma cosmologists recognize as one of the “characteristic velocities” of plasma in the lab.] And astronomers find that during the magnetic reconnection process, a two-layer flow of particles is created that speeds the release of energy [plasma cosmologists call them double layers.] > > The only problem astronomers still need to solve is why so much more energy than they were expecting is produced by the process. Hannés Alfvén could help them here: In the mid-1960’s, he was called by the Swedish Power Company to solve a similar problem on a more down-to-Earth scale. The company was using large rectifiers to convert electrical power from AC to DC for easier transport from the generators in the north to the cities in the south. But every once in a while the plasma in the rectifier would explode, causing considerable damage. The problem turned out to be exploding double layers, like those found in “magnetic reconnection” on the Sun. The explosions expended more energy than was contained by the plasma in the rectifier because the energy from the whole length of the circuit flowed back into the break. In Sweden, this was over 600 miles of electric wires. On the Sun – well, we don’t know yet how long those circuits are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-sun/363586.md?page=4)