# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/181 "2019-10-30T17:18:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > You quoted a cost of $270,000 for a Tesla supercharger, which does sound like a ridiculous amount. [Here](https://smartchargeamerica.com/electric-car-chargers/commercial/chargepoint-express-250/) is a stand-alone charger for $40,800. Even if you figure a few thousand more for installation costs, it’s substantially less than the Tesla charger, and it can charge two cars at the same time. There are other, less expensive chargers at the same site. I’m more than happy to be wrong about the cost of a super charger I just pulled it off of [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger) I certainly haven’t price checked the lowest cost way to build a L3 charging station it seems like a lot since you can build a gas station for $250k. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/182 "2019-10-30T17:26:23Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > you can fill your gas tank at home? Nope. Good catch. ICE vehicles do have to drive to a gas station. In my case its even almost a mile to get to a place I spend 10 minutes per week at. It would be silly for people to want to pay less for the inconvenience the EVs provide since they go home every single day no matter what. Oh, [what that’s not true?](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.afdc.energy.gov/uploads/publication/56898.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwizovWYv8TlAhWU_J4KHYePCkIQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw05nnk8jleNeMVUnz-6sYLT) EVs need to be thousands of dollars cheaper due to filling up being less convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/183 "2019-10-30T17:29:40Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > There are a lot of people who live in rural areas, far from any gas station. It’s not practical to insist they drive 10-20 miles just to fill up their tank. Therefore, ICE vehicles are too niche. Well every farmer I know does have a diesel tank at home and some times that farm diesel just happens to slip into their road vehicles. But for some reason I though we weren’t talking about niche use cases where the nearest gas stations were 10s of miles away. Again I concede EVs are great for niche uses as currently built. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/184 "2019-10-30T17:35:50Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Well every farmer I know does have a diesel tank at home and some times that farm diesel just happens to slip into their road vehicles. But for some reason I though we weren’t talking about niche use cases where the nearest gas stations were 10s of miles away. Again I concede EVs are great for niche uses as currently built. But your definition of niche differs for ICE versus EV. If EVs can’t handle everything, they are niche. You don’t use that same standard for ICE. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/185 "2019-10-30T17:40:42Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Oh, [what that’s not true?](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.afdc.energy.gov/uploads/publication/56898.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwizovWYv8TlAhWU_J4KHYePCkIQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw05nnk8jleNeMVUnz-6sYLT) EVs need to be thousands of dollars cheaper due to filling up being less convenient. WTF? Why are you linking to a study from 7 years ago discussing the comparative availability of CNG fuel service stations? You do realize that suburban homeowners will charge up at home. They will plug their cars in at home, and wouldn’t need to visit a “filling station” more than once every couple of months. Seriously, if you filled up your ICE car at your house every single night how often would you go to a gas station? Right now, today, EV are niche vehicles, the ranges and charging options are not robust enough for widespread acceptance. But this is a dynamically changing field, and it won’t be long before these issues are solved well enough to satisfy a large segment of the population. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/186 "2019-10-30T18:00:33Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You do realize that suburban homeowners will charge up at home. They will plug their cars in at home, and wouldn’t need to visit a “filling station” more than once every couple of months. Seriously, if you filled up your ICE car at your house every single night how often would you go to a gas station? Imagine the discussion if EVs were the standard today, and ICE was the new tech. “OK, today you basically never have to go anywhere to fill your car, it’s just full every morning. If you go on a long road trip, it fills while you eat lunch. But now with ICE engines, you have to stop at a special filling station a few times a week and pump some explosive, smelly liquid into your car. Hopefully you’ll have a filling station within a few miles of you, but not always.” ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/187 "2019-10-30T18:10:29Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > But your definition of niche differs for ICE versus EV. If EVs can’t handle everything, they are niche. You don’t use that same standard for ICE. What are you talking about clearly ICE vehicles meet 98% of drivers needs. I’m comfortable saying that isn’t a niche use case. I guess we should come up with the definition of niche. Do EVs need to meet a minimum percent of cars on the road to not be niche any more. I would suggest a floor of [26%](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/suvs-are-running-sedans-off-the-american-roads/) of total vehicles on the road since that is where sedans are and major manufacturers are saying they are no longer worth producing. Maybe we can build a use case that will meet 1/3 of americans since EVs are part of the sedan, suv and truck market? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/188 "2019-10-30T18:16:29Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Imagine the discussion if EVs were the standard today, and ICE was the new tech. “OK, today you basically never have to go anywhere to fill your car, it’s just full every morning. If you go on a long road trip, it fills while you eat lunch. But now with ICE engines, you have to stop at a special filling station a few times a week and pump some explosive, smelly liquid into your car. Hopefully you’ll have a filling station within a few miles of you, but not always.” “Wow, now I don’t have to pay to park at a charging station since my apartment didn’t want to shell out the millions for charging stations, and I don’t have to wait over half an hour to charge on the road if I don’t need to? Too bad about the price, even though the car is cheaper itself, the $.75 a gallon is pretty steep (the gas never got pumped out of the ground in the first place) so I’ll have to think about it.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/189 "2019-10-30T18:19:28Z")
In the imaginary world in which EVs are the incumbent, ICE vehicles would almost certainly be more expensive. And charging stations wouldn’t cost “millions” for an apartment building. Instead Level 1 or Level 2 chargers would in the building from the original construction. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/190 "2019-10-30T18:23:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > WTF? Why are you linking to a study from 7 years ago discussing the comparative availability of CNG fuel service stations? > > You do realize that suburban homeowners will charge up at home. They will plug their cars in at home, and wouldn’t need to visit a “filling station” more than once every couple of months. Seriously, if you filled up your ICE car at your house every single night how often would you go to a gas station? > > Right now, today, EV are niche vehicles, the ranges and charging options are not robust enough for widespread acceptance. But this is a dynamically changing field, and it won’t be long before these issues are solved well enough to satisfy a large segment of the population. I was trying to show that the convenience of filling up has a value. Currently EVs don’t offer that. I think having to stop for 8 hours is a major disincentive to getting an EV. If I was able to fill up to full at home every night and I had a 200 mile range like current EVs I would have to fill up on the fly once per week and every day 4 weeks per year. You are correct that the EV market is changing dramatically and I think 2021 will lead to a large uptick in EV ownership but I don’t think it will get the total percentage of EV usage out of the 26% range I’m currently using to define niche in fact I don’t think it’ll get us over 10%. It looks like my family’s use case will fall into the range where a $70k EV will be acceptable but most people can’t afford that. I think rapid charging being widely available (it isn’t possible to put a supercharger at most homes so long term I don’t think home charging is a solution) and that just like ICE cars a 300-400 mile range is standard will be necessary for widespread EV acceptance (\>30%). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/191 "2019-10-30T18:29:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > “Wow, now I don’t have to pay to park at a charging station since my apartment didn’t want to shell out the millions for charging stations, and I don’t have to wait over half an hour to charge on the road if I don’t need to? Too bad about the price, even though the car is cheaper itself, the $.75 a gallon is pretty steep (the gas never got pumped out of the ground in the first place) so I’ll have to think about it.” Again, you are imagining a world in which there is minimal infrastructure built to support EVs, and comparing it to the current world where there is incredible infrastructure built around supporting ICE. You are correct that EVs cannot be widely supported if the infrastructure doesn’t change from today, but that’s not what anyone is arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/192 "2019-10-30T18:31:24Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I think rapid charging being widely available (it isn’t possible to put a supercharger at most homes so long term I don’t think home charging is a solution) and that just like ICE cars a 300-400 mile range is standard will be necessary for widespread EV acceptance (\>30%). Literally nobody needs supercharging at home. It’s an absurd misunderstanding of how EVs are different. It’s as silly as saying that ICE owners need a gas station at home. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/193 "2019-10-30T18:31:34Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > In the imaginary world in which EVs are the incumbent, ICE vehicles would almost certainly be more expensive. And charging stations wouldn’t cost “millions” for an apartment building. Instead Level 1 or Level 2 chargers would in the building from the original construction. Of course it’s millions, at $6000 a pop times hundreds of occupants, which doesn’t even count the metering costs. If you want replace that part of the complaint with “my apartment complex didn’t want to shell out the millions for additional charging stations once the two-car family became standard.” ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/194 "2019-10-30T18:37:37Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Of course it’s millions, at $6000 a pop times hundreds of occupants, which doesn’t even count the metering costs. If you want replace that part of the complaint with “my apartment complex didn’t want to shell out the millions for additional charging stations once the two-car family became standard.” Why on earth would an apartment block install anything more than a 240V outlet per parking spot at a cost of a few hundred per pop? Apartments in northern climes already have parking lots with 110V outlets as a matter of course (for block heaters). Somehow they manage to get by. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/195 "2019-10-30T19:35:21Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I was trying to show that the convenience of filling up has a value. Currently EVs don’t offer that. People with EV’s fill up in their own garages while they sleep. Hard to get more convenient access than your own garage. > [@](#): > > If I was able to fill up to full at home every night and I had a 200 mile range like current EVs I would have to fill up on the fly once per week and every day 4 weeks per year. Agreed, 200 miles isn’t enough range. How does this calculus change with a 500 mile range? > [@](#): > > I think rapid charging being widely available (it isn’t possible to put a supercharger at most homes so long term I don’t think home charging is a solution) and that just like ICE cars a 300-400 mile range is standard will be necessary for widespread EV acceptance (\>30%). I believe rapid charging is a niche solution\*, while longer range (500mi) and overnight charging is the broad solution to drive wide acceptance of EV. \*Niche as in it needs to exist, but will not ever be the typical way one would recharge an EV. EV owners have a filling station in their garage, as long as their range is enough for their normal driving pattern, they never have to fill up outside the home. The only time they have to fill up somewhere else is when they go beyond normal driving, it’s the unusual trip that requires rapid charging. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/196 "2019-10-30T19:38:48Z")
From what I’ve found, rapid charging reduces battery life and capacity, so, if true, it’s something to avoid if possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/197 "2019-10-30T20:21:13Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > At Seatac airport parking they have spots you can plug in (110 volts) for as long as you’re there. No additional charge. It takes me 30 hours to fully charge after my 62 mile trip to airport. There is a supercharger at the cell phone lot for those in need Wait a second. 30 hours to recharge after a 62 mile drive? Is your battery totally depleted at that point? Is that linear, i.e., driving one mile takes 30 minutes to recharge to 100%? Does that mean back when I had a 15-mile commute each way, I would have had have to recharge my car for 15 hours each night?, And if I had to drive to a meeting or run errands that added another 6 miles to the trip, I couldn’t even fully recharge my car before I had to drive to work again? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/198 "2019-10-30T20:21:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Why on earth would an apartment block install anything more than a 240V outlet per parking spot at a cost of a few hundred per pop? > > Apartments in northern climes already have parking lots with 110V outlets as a matter of course (for block heaters). Somehow they manage to get by. This. I installed a charging station in my garage. It’s wasn’t very expensive – the cost of a new outlet plus about $100 for the port. Apartment buildings install stoves, air conditioners, etc. Lots have been retrofitted for AC, even. Installing some charging stations in the parking garage is a lot cheaper than installing AC in the units. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/199 "2019-10-30T20:25:12Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Wait a second. 30 hours to recharge after a 62 mile drive? Is your battery totally depleted at that point? Is that linear, i.e., driving one mile takes 30 minutes to recharge to 100%? Does that mean back when I had a 15-mile commute each way, I would have had have to recharge my car for 15 hours each night?, And if I had to drive to a meeting or run errands that added another 6 miles to the trip, I couldn’t even fully recharge my car before I had to drive to work again? Yes, with a 110 outlet. At home it’s less than 4 hours. Most days I’m fully charged in two hours or less. I just checked my app, I have 7 hours, 57 minutes to full charge at the airport. But it’s free. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/200 "2019-10-30T21:10:44Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > People with EV’s fill up in their own garages while they sleep. Hard to get more convenient access than your own garage. > Agreed, 200 miles isn’t enough range. How does this calculus change with a 500 mile range?I believe rapid charging is a niche solution\*, while longer range (500mi) and overnight charging is the broad solution to drive wide acceptance of EV. > \*Niche as in it needs to exist, but will not ever be the typical way one would recharge an EV. EV owners have a filling station in their garage, as long as their range is enough for their normal driving pattern, they never have to fill up outside the home. The only time they have to fill up somewhere else is when they go beyond normal driving, it’s the unusual trip that requires rapid charging. Several people brought up the same point but I’ll address yours. Home charging doesn’t work with longer range EVs. We already went through it in post 100. The best home charging is 44 miles per hour. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > And if you really need it, you can get a hard-wired installation that will charge at 48 amps. That’s 44 miles per hour Assuming a 500 mile charge that’s 11 hours to a full charge. So now your home system is no longer convenient to give you a full charge or at least I don’t know too many families that are home for that long every night. We are homebodies in our circle and we’re only home 12 hours per work day. Sure you’re probably topping off from your 200 miles per driving on a usual day but if you are prepping for a trip or had one of those long days of driving now were talking days to recover. For me 400 miles will cover most of my day trips since my 700 mile/day days are done. I would still fill up away from home 4 weeks a year but it would probably only on days I had a late night followed by an early morning (get home at 10 Friday night after a 300 mile day and be up at 3 am to go hunting) that I would need to fill up locally maybe 4-5 times per year. I think the 500 mile range is the minimum to be viable for road trips though as I showed earlier most people prefer to stay in hotels at least 8 hours from their home so 600 is probably better minimum with filling up at your destination. Then we run into the problem of slow charging again if we’re filling up a 600 mile range at 44 miles/hour you’re stuck at your hotel for 13 hours that is a significant change to how most people vacation. As I mentioned I’d want to get 400 miles in 20 minutes but for a larger number of use cases I think charging would have to improve to 600 miles in 8 hours or close to 100 amps at 240V. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=11)