# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/221 "2019-10-30T23:54:47Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Quick question - how do EV batteries respond to _high_ temperatures? Totally fine. Optimal, even. I worked out the numbers a while back: on a Model 3, the lowered air density from hot air actually gives more power savings than the extra load on the AC unit. And in my experience, this is borne out–I see maybe a 10% range increase going from cool temps (say, 10 C) to warm (35 C). The cells themselves like to be warm. Tesla now has a feature that pre-warms the battery pack before reaching a Supercharger station because they can charge faster that way. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/222 "2019-10-30T23:56:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Are you still thinking that a supercharger is required for overnight charging? Dude,you literally were bitching about me cherry picking the cost of a super charger. I respond with a cite showing you know nothin about supercharger cost. Now you’re changing your story to pretend you were complaining about installing a supercharger at all. Do you understand that everything is saved and stored for us all to see? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/223 "2019-10-30T23:58:13Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Quick question - how do EV batteries respond to _high_ temperatures? > > Here in Central Victoria, Australia, cold temperatures aren’t really a concern. It’ll dip below freezing a few times a month in winter, and that’s about it. > > In the summer, however - and even in spring, like it is now - temps will routinely reach the mid-30s celsius, and there will be days up in the 40s\*. How will the batteries respond to that? > > As yet, EVs available in Australia don’t meet my use case/cost calculus, quite, but I’m keeping an eye on them. > > \*For fahrenheit thinkers, 35C is about 95F, and 40C is about 104F Today, in mid-spring, it’s predicted to reach 33C/91F. Summertime, daytime high temps will rarely be below 30ishC. Nissan LEAF batteries are not great in high temperatures. They do not have active battery cooling. This does lead in some cases to premature battery degradation. (think areas like Phoenix AZ; not kind to LEAF batteries) In areas like yours, stick to EV’s with good thermal management. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/224 "2019-10-31T00:03:00Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Overall, you spent \<45 minutes charging on the road, and basically all of that was time you would have spent anyway on breaks. Even if you’re the type who only would have made a single 5 minute gas stop–well, who cares, that’s only 40 extra minutes out of 8 hours. Big deal. > > That said, this does require that Superchargers be common on your usual routes. In California, that’s true. It may not be true where you are, and so the times might be longer if you have to go out of your way or stop earlier than you’d like. But more stations are going in all the time, and fairly soon we’ll also have non-Tesla fast chargers. Exactly this. I’m not sure how often anyone actually drives for 600 miles non-stop without a break for even a pee. I actually think it’s recommended to take breaks while driving to avoid fatigue, which can be dangerous. Whenever I have stopped for gas in my ICE car on a road trip, I don’t think I have EVER gassed up and zoomed off. My family uses the restroom, we get snacks, have a stretch… DC fast chargers are being installed every 200km or so along the major highways in my neck of the woods. Canadian Tire is installing them in parking lots of their stores. PetroCanada is rolling out fast chargers in their stations that are located on or near major highways. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/225 "2019-10-31T00:04:11Z")
In general, people really have trouble wrapping their heads around how an EV changes the way we will be thinking about how we “fuel” our vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/226 "2019-10-31T00:04:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Wait, you recharged during long distance trips? That’s impossible. It would completely destroy **Oredigger77** ’s position if that were a thing that were possible. Yep the 200 miles in 75 minutes for a supercharger totally makes my points crazy. Oh wait, I said that 600 miles in 480 minutes would be needed which is half the speed of a supercharger and then proposed putting a supercharger. Huh, its almost like you agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/227 "2019-10-31T00:05:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Clipper Creek charger HCS-50 charges at 9.6 kW, which will give you 31 miles range in an hour. Cost you $635. Requires the same wiring as a stove. You may have just answered a question I’ve often wondered. My washer and electric dryer just happen to be in my garage anyway. If I had an EV, could I simply unplug the dryer and plug the EV into the 220 V dryer outlet? Would I even need any new wiring at all? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/228 "2019-10-31T00:09:16Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > You mean the superchargers that Tesla normally doesn’t sell? Why would I care what it costs? Upthread I linked to a website listing for a generic (meaning can be used for cars other than Teslas) DC fast charger that costs about $40,000 and can charge two cars at the same time. You mean the cost to a company who has installed hundreds of chargers across the country instead of a small urban pilot. I think having a discussion on what the infrastructure cost really would be to hotels would be interesting but attacking me for proposing a charger that meets the standards that I explained how I achieved and documenting the cost for that installation is hardly a crazy way to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/229 "2019-10-31T00:18:56Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > Would I even need any new wiring at all? No new wiring required. The existing outlet is fine. If you’re really lazy, you can get something like the [Dryer Buddy](https://www.bsaelectronics.com/collections/dryer-buddys). One input, two outputs, and has either a manual or automatic cutover. But just unplugging and replugging works fine, too. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/230 "2019-10-31T00:21:56Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Yep the 200 miles in 75 minutes for a supercharger totally makes my points crazy. You continue to spout misinformation. It’s roughly 200 miles in 25 minutes for a Supercharger, not 75 minutes. And not too long from now, it’ll be 200 miles in 15 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/231 "2019-10-31T00:34:03Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Your NYTimes cite is behind a paywall. It’s not clear what 8 hours actually means, but I’m almost certain it doesn’t mean 8\*80 mph=640 miles as your trips would entail. > > No he wouldn’t. Reasonable-cost EVs aren’t going to have 600 mile ranges anytime soon, anyway. > > The way a 600 mile drive works _today_, in a Tesla, is this: > > - You start the day with a 300 mile range, because you told the car to charge to 100% last night. > - You drive 250 miles or so and stop at a Supercharger. You walk to McDonalds or Starbucks for a bite to eat and a bathroom break. 25 minutes later you get back to your car, which has added 200 miles of range. > - You drive another 200 miles and make another quick pit stop at a Supercharger. This time it’s only an 18 minute break; enough to grab a coffee and pee. The car has added 150 miles of range when you were gone. > - You drive the final 150 miles to the hotel. You get there with 50 miles left; plenty of wiggle room. You plug into an L2 charger, which only takes 7 hours to go from 50-\>300 miles. > - Repeat as necessary. > > Overall, you spent \<45 minutes charging on the road, and basically all of that was time you would have spent anyway on breaks. Even if you’re the type who only would have made a single 5 minute gas stop–well, who cares, that’s only 40 extra minutes out of 8 hours. Big deal. > > That said, this does require that Superchargers be common on your usual routes. In California, that’s true. It may not be true where you are, and so the times might be longer if you have to go out of your way or stop earlier than you’d like. But more stations are going in all the time, and fairly soon we’ll also have non-Tesla fast chargers. You know what you are correct. If there were supercharger equivalents every 200 miles across the country then EVs would be totally practical and you wouldn’t even need the charger at the hotel since you could add 200 miles in 20 minutes over breakfast. That would solve range anxiety completely. Hmmm . . . That almost exactly what I’ve proposed. Admittedly it would be my personal hell having to stop every 3 hours but it would work. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/232 "2019-10-31T00:41:42Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > You continue to spout misinformation. It’s roughly 200 miles in 25 minutes for a Supercharger, not 75 minutes. And not too long from now, it’ll be 200 miles in 15 minutes. Maybe you should write a book so you can cite yourself. I’ve been citing my sources where are yours? The [wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger)shows 20 minutes to 50%, 40 minutes to 80% and 75 minutes to 100%. Maybe I’m missing something but at least I’m showing my work. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/233 "2019-10-31T00:43:33Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > You may have just answered a question I’ve often wondered. My washer and electric dryer just happen to be in my garage anyway. If I had an EV, could I simply unplug the dryer and plug the EV into the 220 V dryer outlet? Would I even need any new wiring at all? Yes you can, though a typical dryer outlet is only 30 amps (NEMA 14-30 usually), which will max out at around 7.2kw for charging. (But in reality, an EV will not draw the full 30 amps so as to not trip your breaker, so you’ll get maybe 6kw.) I installed a 50-amp (NEMA 14-50) plug on my garage to charge my EV. Fortunately the main electrical panel was only a few feet away so the installation was very easy. I just had to pay a guy to bend the conduit for me, since I don’t have a conduit bender. The car will draw 40 amps (9.6kw) which can effect a recharge from zero to 90% in about eight hours. Of course I almost never bring the car home anywhere near empty, so it usually charges for 3-4 hours a night. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/234 "2019-10-31T00:44:20Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Admittedly it would be my personal hell having to stop every 3 hours but it would work. I think everyone can see how bizarrely distorted your views are here. Reasonable stopping interval for just about everyone equals “personal hell” for **Oredigger77**. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/235 "2019-10-31T00:53:31Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > The [wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger)shows 20 minutes to 50%, 40 minutes to 80% and 75 minutes to 100%. Maybe I’m missing something but at least I’m showing my work. Well, I can show you a photo of my own charge screen [here](https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zs82f5ZRhCYsHiLz8). It shows a charge rate of 486 miles/hour. Note that this is an instantaneous rate–it can’t sustain that over the full charge cycle. But it can get roughly that below 70%ish. 200 mi / 486 mph \* 60 min/hour = 24.7 minutes. You don’t charge to 100% at a Supercharger (I included this fact in my trip above). The charge rate declines rapidly at high charge levels. Stopping in the 70-80% range is ideal. Charging at ~200 mile intervals works nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/236 "2019-10-31T01:20:07Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Maybe you should write a book so you can cite yourself. I’ve been citing my sources where are yours? The [wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger)shows 20 minutes to 50%, 40 minutes to 80% and 75 minutes to 100%. Maybe I’m missing something but at least I’m showing my work. Just an honest question here - when the rest of us use terms like Supercharger and L2, do you know what we are talking about? As in, could you describe the difference between the two? I ask because you seem to use the word supercharger in varying ways, sometimes maybe referring to an L2 charger. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/237 "2019-10-31T01:44:02Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Or even the suggestion that apartments would have to spend “$6000 a pop” to install charging for tenants. Seriously? Where was this figure pulled out of? Maybe don’t just make shit up. It was the first Google hit :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: It’s insulting to think that I spent as much time as I did in making sure that my throwaway line “millions” wasn’t completely inaccurate only to be accused of not doing any research. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/238 "2019-10-31T01:51:13Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > The last hotel I was in (this past weekend) had outlets outside the building; however, it’s illegal to park there & use them as that’s a fire lane. The hotel I’m currently in does not have access up against the building (other than the pickup/dropoff checkin/out covered area). While not insurmountable, add the cost to run power lines into the parking lot to create those charging posts. Did this hotel have streetlights in the parking lot? Then some power has already been run. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/239 "2019-10-31T01:52:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just an honest question here - when the rest of us use terms like Supercharger and L2, do you know what we are talking about? As in, could you describe the difference between the two? > > I ask because you seem to use the word supercharger in varying ways, sometimes maybe referring to an L2 charger. My understanding, and I’m going to do this post without google, is that L1 chargers are the basic home chargers, L2 are the fancier chargers that are also used at like grocery stores and stuff that offer public charging typically to try and draw in EV drivers. Superchargers are specific to tesla who also has mega chargers. Originally you could sign up to get them to put a free supercharger at your facility and put you on a map so tesla divers would come visit you. If you’re looking for technical differences no I have no idea. No more than I do that level 5 autonomous driving means that people aren’t need and at level 4 someone still has to sit there but I don’t know the details. Honestly, I couldn’t tell you where the nearest public charger is as my interest in EVs is purely theoretical. I do know that I’ve talked a dozen people into EVs in the last year and talked to probably 50 people due to my excitement over the R1T. Getting the range to 400 miles makes a big difference to most people myself included. I think I’ve showed why that true. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/240 "2019-10-31T02:02:52Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Of course it’s millions, at $6000 a pop times hundreds of occupants, which doesn’t even count the metering costs. If you want replace that part of the complaint with “my apartment complex didn’t want to shell out the millions for additional charging stations once the two-car family became standard.” > [@Ludovic](#): > > It was the first Google hit :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: It’s insulting to think that I spent as much time as I did in making sure that my throwaway line “millions” wasn’t completely inaccurate only to be accused of not doing any research. From what I can tell you are the one who brought up the $6,000 outlet. You really seem to be running with the bit but it sure has me confused. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=13)