# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/381 "2019-11-05T17:11:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t know about distance, but I suspect there is a geographic component as well. In the bay area, a 1 hour commute is pretty normal, but that could be 10 miles, or 40. Oh yeah, totally agree. I have about a 40 minute drive, but it is 7 miles. The challenge is that two different things are being measured: the distance traveled is relevant to the discussion we are having here; but the time traveled is relevant to the impact on one’s life. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/382 "2019-11-05T17:59:06Z")
**Kent** , here is an appraisal from a Model 3 owner who is very honest about how the car has performed in winter in Ontario. [Range loss in the bitter cold | Model 3 Owners Club - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2gmphV8IZQ) He’s saying his range is cut considerably by the cold BUT is still fine for what he needs. Does it work for you? Only you can decide that. Keep inmind that having the car plugged in means that it’s warmed up and fully charged first thing in the morning and if you have plugins at work means you can have a warm car to jump into at day’s end. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/383 "2019-11-05T18:11:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m seriously considering an electric motorcycle just for commuting, and I already have a EV. There are currently no electric motorcycles that have a 100 mile range, a top speed of 90 MPH, and cost $10,000 or less. Therefore electric motorcycles are stupid and nobody should ever ride one. If there is one that meets those specs, that I don’t know about, then it doesn’t count because it’s too ugly. Seriously, every time I see an announcement of a new electric motorcycle, I hope it will be the one, but they’re just not quite there yet for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/384 "2019-11-05T18:33:02Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > There are currently no electric motorcycles that have a 100 mile range, a top speed of 90 MPH, and cost $10,000 or less. Therefore electric motorcycles are stupid and nobody should ever ride one. If there is one that meets those specs, that I don’t know about, then it doesn’t count because it’s too ugly. Plus, a rider could literally _fall off_ an electric motorcycle if he attempts to drive through a tornado – these death traps must stay off the road! ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/385 "2019-11-05T19:06:34Z")
Motorcycles generally are only useful 5 or 6 months out of the year where I live. Honestly I don’t understand how they’re even still a thing. Who would want something only useful for a few months in summer? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/386 "2019-11-05T19:18:05Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > There are currently no electric motorcycles that have a 100 mile range, a top speed of 90 MPH, and cost $10,000 or less. Therefore electric motorcycles are stupid and nobody should ever ride one. If there is one that meets those specs, that I don’t know about, then it doesn’t count because it’s too ugly. > > Seriously, every time I see an announcement of a new electric motorcycle, I hope it will be the one, but they’re just not quite there yet for me. [30 mile range with top speed at about 45mph for less than $3,000.](https://electrek.co/2019/04/04/review-csc-city-slicker-electric-motorcycle/) My commute now I don’t even take the freeway and it’s 9 miles, but that can take an hour with traffic. Also, the [Zero SFX](https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/) at 50 or 100 mile range at highway speeds. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/387 "2019-11-05T20:12:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Plus, a rider could literally _fall off_ an electric motorcycle if he attempts to drive through a tornado – these death traps must stay off the road! Until a motorcycle comes out that can tow my 5th wheel in the winter over a mountain pass, I can’t see getting one. This pretty much proves that EV’s are not useful for practical purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/388 "2019-11-05T20:45:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > There are certainly people whose personal circumstances or geographic location make it so that a current model EV will not work for them. > > Can we agree that: > > - This does NOT MEAN that EV’s are therefore not a good purchase for a great many other people. > - This does NOT MEAN that EV’s and associated infrastructure will never improve in the future. > > Because this is my main irritation. What you are missing is that it isn’t that it isn’t a question of the individual. It’s a question of entire swaths of the country. EVs might work for a minority of the population in suburban areas but folks in the city and the country can’t use one for the foreseeable future. Where is someone in a farm house with 100 amp service or a city dweller on the 40th floor going to plug the thing in? An EV could be the best car in the world but if you have no way of fueling it then it is useless. I see no way to tackle this in the near future (10-20 years). You are talking about completely rewiring houses, wiring street parking in cities or wiring parking garages. None of that happens overnight, and most importantly, it’s in no one’s interest, financially, to do so. As I said before, I think EVs are great. But I don’t expect to ever own one for these reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/389 "2019-11-05T20:46:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Until a motorcycle comes out that can tow my 5th wheel in the winter over a mountain pass, I can’t see getting one. This pretty much proves that EV’s are not useful for practical purposes. I know what you mean. I live in a subterranean lair in close proximity to a volcano, a North Korean minefield, a farm specializing in collecting honey from toxic zombie bees, a pool of radioactive waste that’s slightly larger than Lake Tahoe, plus I lack any appendages. No way anyone should get an electric motorcycle. It’s just not practical. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/390 "2019-11-05T20:49:47Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Motorcycles generally are only useful 5 or 6 months out of the year where I live. Honestly I don’t understand how they’re even still a thing. Who would want something only useful for a few months in summer? So you don’t think there will be a market for an [Electric Boat](http://www.aquawatt.at/GB/yachten_und_boote_5_GB.html)? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/391 "2019-11-05T20:52:15Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > Where is someone in a farm house with 100 amp service… going to plug the thing in? A wall socket. If this farm doesn’t have one, I question why they have electricity at all. > [@Procrustus](#): > > So you don’t think there will be a market for an [Electric Boat](http://www.aquawatt.at/GB/yachten_und_boote_5_GB.html)? I thought you were going [this direction](http://www.gdeb.com), for which recharging is never an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/392 "2019-11-05T20:53:28Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > There are certainly people whose personal circumstances or geographic location make it so that a current model EV will not work for them. > > Can we agree that: > > - This does NOT MEAN that EV’s are therefore not a good purchase for a great many other people. > - This does NOT MEAN that EV’s and associated infrastructure will never improve in the future. > > Because this is my main irritation. Hopefully everyone can agree to this - I think a lot of the disagreement is over what a “great many other people” constitutes. A lot of people are under the impression that EVs are still only good for relatively niche applications. Many people in this thread are just explaining why electric cars are not good for their specific situation (and IMO, overestimating their own needs, but they are ultimately the judge of what they are comfortable with), but anecdotes in this thread don’t really say much about the broader population. I think the more interesting question is, for what % of people does an electric car make the most sense for, ignoring cost? And what % of people would it make sense for, including cost? IMO, electric cars are at the point where, ignoring cost, they could be the preferred choice most people who live in a house - which appears to be most people in the US. As **Ravenman** pointed out, if \<3% of people commute \>100 miles per day, then most electric cars can easily fulfill the daily needs for the vast majority of people. I think one big mindset hurdle for many people is that they have this idea that a car they own NEEDS to be able to handle EVERY situation, instead of just 95% of their driving needs. I used to think this as well - which is why I thought plug-in hybrids would be a lot more popular than they currently are. But then I ended up going without a car for a few months, and found out that renting cars is really not that difficult of a process. People who are thinking “well I’d like to get this electric car, but it doesn’t work for me for the couple road trips that I like to do every year…” - just rent a gasoline car for those road trips! It is a slight inconvenience, but IMO more than offset by the convenience of being able to charge your car at your own home instead of having to go to a gas station for your regular commuting activities. So my estimation is that the main thing holding EVs back right now is cost - even if electricity costs less than gas, the higher up-front cost probably keeps a lot of buyers from considering an EV. A Nissan Leaf starts at ~$30k, while a Sentra starts at ~$18k - that difference pays for an awful lot of gas and maintenance. It’s hard to know how cheap EVs will have to get in order to really take off, but my estimation is that if manufacturers can get the cost of EVs down by ~20-25% they’ll really see them start to take off - but that doesn’t seem like an easy task. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/393 "2019-11-05T21:10:09Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > Hopefully everyone can agree to this - I think a lot of the disagreement is over what a “great many other people” constitutes. A lot of people are under the impression that EVs are still only good for relatively niche applications. Many people in this thread are just explaining why electric cars are not good for their specific situation (and IMO, overestimating their own needs, but they are ultimately the judge of what they are comfortable with), but anecdotes in this thread don’t really say much about the broader population. Humans are egocentric creatures. We all tend to think that our own personal experiences are what’s “normal”, and that anyone who’s experiences differ from our own must be some sort of outlier. Thus people overestimate the number of people with needs similar to their own, and conclude that because an EV wouldn’t work for them they must be a niche product. And I should point out that the same applies to the pro-EV side of the argument as well. Which is why data \> anecdotes. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/394 "2019-11-05T21:17:17Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > I see no way to tackle this in the near future (10-20 years). You are talking about completely rewiring houses, wiring street parking in cities or wiring parking garages. None of that happens overnight, and most importantly, it’s in no one’s interest, financially, to do so. > > As I said before, I think EVs are great. But I don’t expect to ever own one for these reasons. Rewiring a house? What? Most houses have these things called plugs. You plug your EV into them. I think you may be assuming that the majority of the rural population lives in antiquated farm houses with very limited electrical service. And the majority of the urban population does not have access to electricity where they park or chargers. I do not believe this is true. Essentially, your assumptions about what constitutes the “majority” of the population are badly, badly flawed, and is a perfect example of what I have been going on about in the original post. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/395 "2019-11-05T21:29:02Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > Where is someone in a farm house with 100 amp service What about it? 240V @ 30A is a good home charge setup and since it’s happening at night, isn’t conflicting with other big draws like the AC or dryer. That easily fits within 100A service. > [@Pabitel](#): > > or a city dweller on the 40th floor going to plug the thing in? I imagine that most city dwellers on 40th floors don’t have a car at all, but regardless: yes, apartments will have to install chargers for their tenants over time. As noted earlier, this isn’t particularly expensive. > [@Pabitel](#): > > As I said before, I think EVs are great. But I don’t expect to ever own one for these reasons. How old are you? 90? Infrastructure is already being built at an enormous rate, even with just a couple percent of new cars being EVs. At even 10% (which will happen very easily), no one will be able to ignore them. Apartments, etc. will have to install charge systems if they don’t want to lose tenants. And personally, I suspect the EV penetration rate will be much higher than 10% in ten years. In 20 years it’ll be well over 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/396 "2019-11-05T21:34:14Z")
Let me add this – I don’t expect the US to be 100% EV in the foreseeable future. Shoot, not even 70%. But there’s some level of EV penetration that is quite easily achievable in the next decade – I’m just not sure if it’s like 20% of new sales, or 60%, or some other number. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/397 "2019-11-05T21:46:13Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > What you are missing is that it isn’t that it isn’t a question of the individual. It’s a question of entire swaths of the country. EVs might work for a minority of the population in suburban areas but folks in the city and the country can’t use one for the foreseeable future. Where is someone in a farm house with 100 amp service or a city dweller on the 40th floor going to plug the thing in? An EV could be the best car in the world but if you have no way of fueling it then it is useless. > > I see no way to tackle this in the near future (10-20 years). You are talking about completely rewiring houses, wiring street parking in cities or wiring parking garages. None of that happens overnight, and most importantly, it’s in no one’s interest, financially, to do so. Keep in mind that EV home charging is typically on a NEMA 14-30 or a 14-50 outlet. A 14-30 outlet is the same thing you’d install for a regular electric dryer. A 14-50 is what you’d install for a welder. Both of these are sufficient to charge for 250+ miles overnight. I don’t think its exactly _abnormal_ to see either an electric dryer, or a welder in a farmhouse. Why is an EV suddenly so crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/398 "2019-11-05T21:51:48Z")
You _can_ recharge an EV via a 110 outlet, albeit slowly. So an EV at a farmhouse with 100 amp service isn’t impossible to imagine. And suburbanites aren’t a “minority” of the population but at least half of it (depending on how you define suburbs). And why wouldn’t it be in someone’s financial interests to wire street parking or parking garages for EV recharging? You _can_ charge people for the privilege, you know, much as how gas stations charge people for the privilege of refueling their vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/399 "2019-11-05T21:54:40Z")
Another factor: you regain roughly 3 miles of range per kwh. So if you come home and stay for just 12 hours while charging, on a regular household plug, that means you gain…4.32 miles back per hour. Or 43 miles of range back. “But I have \”. Then you need 40 amps at 240 volt, for 25-30 miles back every hour. Or a full battery within 10 hours. That’s basically the same as a clothes dryer or oven. But, surprisingly, a lot of people will be just fine on a regular 120 volt plug. On those rare days this isn’t enough they can catch up on weekends or supercharge. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/400 "2019-11-05T23:15:10Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > Where is someone in a farm house with 100 amp service or a city dweller on the 40th floor going to plug the thing in? An EV could be the best car in the world but if you have no way of fueling it then it is useless. > > I see no way to tackle this in the near future (10-20 years). You are talking about completely rewiring houses, wiring street parking in cities or wiring parking garages. None of that happens overnight, and most importantly, it’s in no one’s interest, financially, to do so. I don’t think you understand how electrical service works. A house with 100 amp service can easily support EV charging for a cost of about $300 in materials and labor. FTR, the “rewiring” that my house required for my EV consisted of seven feet of EMT conduit and a outdoor-rated 14-50 receptacle. [Here is the result](https://imgur.com/a/XgNYRHp). Took a whopping 90 minutes to install, and a good chunk of that was waiting for a guy to help me bend the conduit since I don’t have a conduit bender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=21)