# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/461 "2019-11-07T14:58:35Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Good for you, but there’s lots of people who apparently need the best deal on gasoline they can find. So they wait 20 or 30 minutes at Costco, other stores, or gas stations. And they have to stay with their vehicle (usually idling the engine and burning even more gas) because every 5 minutes or so they have to move it up in line. Also they’ll frequently drive some distance out of their way to get to that cheap gas. Which isn’t that much cheaper since they usually only save a couple-three bucks per fillup. > > Now how is that behavior different than someone travelling and having to stop at a level 3 charger? One diference is that once you hook up to a charger, you can get out of the car and do other things. Secondly, there’s no such thing as idling EVs, you don’t waste any electrons when it’s just sitting there. And it’s usually much cheaper than even the lowest price gas. > > So all-in-all, it looks like a big win for EVs. Describing EVs as a win for rare irrational weirdos who wait in line for gas isn’t exactly selling the concept well. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/462 "2019-11-07T15:06:59Z")
The other one I like is “what if the grid goes down like in 2003?” well, same as back then. Gas stations didn’t have power either. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/463 "2019-11-07T15:14:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Describing EVs as a win for rare irrational weirdos who wait in line for gas isn’t exactly selling the concept well. Without disagreeing with this assessment, I feel compelled to point out that people who are irrational about gas are not at all rare. Huge numbers of people fret about minor gas price fluctuations, drive across town to save a couple cents per litre, rage about how “they” always raise the price just before the long weekend, etc. For those people, home charging actually would be a win. That irrational people inconvenience themselves for gas does nothing to mitigate the inconvenience posed by gaps in coverage of current charger networks, however. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/464 "2019-11-07T15:17:09Z")
I finally found some info on home parking: 10.1016/j.trd.2013.10.001 As of 2013: 79% of household have some sort of off-street parking. That’s encouraging. Only 56% of vehicles have a dedicated parking spot. I’m assuming due to situations where the household has two cars but only one spot. That drops to 47% at an owned residence, where it’s easier to install charging. And people will need that, because only 22% of vehicles have access to an outlet. They do caveat all this with some uncertainty in their assumptions behind those numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/465 "2019-11-07T15:56:11Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Either source puts your commute at more than double average, so calling your commute “short” seems some problematic. I should have said short for my state. I know, for a fact, that most of my co-workers have a longer commute than I do (a little over 30 miles, one way). ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/466 "2019-11-07T15:58:00Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Then you would catch up on the weekend, regaining the lost range by Monday. Because no one needs to use their car on the weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/467 "2019-11-07T16:03:22Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > I should have said short for my state. I’m middle-income for my state. Doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that my income is higher than a substantial majority of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/468 "2019-11-07T16:06:32Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Only 56% of vehicles have a dedicated parking spot. I’m assuming due to situations where the household has two cars but only one spot. I wonder if they are counting the driveway as a dedicated parking spot? Installing a charger in the garage is a lot easier and cheaper than installing one by the driveway. But anyway, it doesn’t matter if EVs are practical for everyone **NOW**. It’s practical for _some_ people now, and more and more of those people will be getting them in the next few years. As this happens, more and more EV infrastructure will be built in response - chargers at parking lots, rest stops, restaurants, hotels, apartments, more homes, etc. This will also cause the EV range to go up and price to come down due to increased investment in R&D + economy of scale. As this accelerates, EVs will become a practical option for more and more people. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/469 "2019-11-07T16:06:36Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > I should have said short for my state. I know, for a fact, that most of my co-workers have a longer commute than I do (a little over 30 miles, one way). So perhaps an EV isn’t right for the 600,000 residents of your state. I think that still leaves a few others who live places where it is a viable option. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/470 "2019-11-07T16:06:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If you commute 200 miles per day through remote country, where the chances of getting attacked by a bear are greater than finding an EV charger …DO NOT buy an electric vehicle What you fail to understand is that this, pretty accurately, describes my entire state and at lest two neighboring states. This isn’t an issue about individuals. It is about regions. metro areas will be able to accommodate EVs. They are especially suited for suburbs. There are large regions, including entire states, where they will not make sense for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/471 "2019-11-07T16:15:24Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > What you fail to understand is that this, pretty accurately, describes my entire state and at lest two neighboring states. This isn’t an issue about individuals. It is about regions. metro areas will be able to accommodate EVs. They are especially suited for suburbs. There are large regions, including entire states, where they will not make sense for the foreseeable future. Vermont actually has one of the higher rates of EV ownership. Substantially higher than very urban and high-income Washington, DC, in fact. > **[FOTW #1059, December 10, 2018: California Had the Most Plug-in Vehicle...](https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1059-december-10-2018-california-had-most-plug-vehicle-registrations)** > > California had 8.64 plug-in vehicle (PEV) registrations per 1,000 people in 2017, followed by Hawaii with 5.12, and Washington state with 4.06. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/472 "2019-11-07T16:18:39Z")
Note that chart includes plug-in hybrid vehicles along with purely electric ones. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/473 "2019-11-07T16:19:13Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > But anyway, it doesn’t matter if EVs are practical for everyone **NOW**. What an absolutely bizarre thing to write. Of course it matters, as it’s integral to the shape of the adoption curve. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/474 "2019-11-07T16:27:31Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Note that chart includes plug-in hybrid vehicles along with purely electric ones. Guess the farmhouses can handle a Prius Prime. I was given to understand that was a completely bonkers idea. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/475 "2019-11-07T16:31:56Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > What you fail to understand is that this, pretty accurately, describes my entire state and at lest two neighboring states. If you’re describing VT and NH (and upstate NY?) there are plenty of EVs up there. So either these people don’t share your driving patterns or they have the infrastructure they need to make it work. Certainly in NH, people living in Nashua, Manchester, Concord or the Seacoast would have no problems living with an EV. And that’s the bulk of the state’s population. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/476 "2019-11-07T16:55:28Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > But for the love of God, stop telling the majority of people that EV’s are a stupid choice because of YOUR PARTICULAR situation. But… but this is the internet where everyone’s experience is equally valid and a pattern for all else to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/477 "2019-11-07T17:53:39Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > [See Post#137 upthread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21942589&postcount=137). > > From looking at their website, EVGo stations use CHAdeMO and CCS (50kW max), and some J1172 (7.2kW). Most new Tesla supercharger stations are 150kW-250kW max, and cannot be used by other manufacturers (even if they had the hardware to support it), since the car authenticates the vehicle. > > Teslas can use a CHAdeMO adapter, but it’s expensive. CCS isn’t _currently_ supported for US Tesla models. A J1172 connector comes with the car. Thanks, I must have missed that post. I know I missed this specific line. > [@Dr. Strangelove](#): > > The most common charger type is probably SAE J1772, which supports up to 20 kW charging. Tesla includes an adapter with every car. This isn’t really fast enough for charging on the road but it’s fine for overnight, at work, etc. So the situation is something similar to driving a car with a diesel engine? Not every gas station sells diesel, but enough do so that a diesel owner usually doesn’t have to worry. But I’m confused about that SAE J1772 chargers not being “really fast enough for charging on the road.” How much, how fast CAN it charge? Are we talking something like limiting a diesel car to three gallons each time they fill up on the road? Now we’re back to a range anxiety issue. > [@Euphonious Polemic](#): > > But for the love of God, stop telling the majority of people that EV’s are a stupid choice because of YOUR PARTICULAR situation. This is where we’re talking past each other. It’s not MY particular situation. It seems to be the particular situation for people in [20+ states](https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1059-december-10-2018-california-had-most-plug-vehicle-registrations) where fewer than 1 person in 1,000 owns a plug-in vehicle. That may not be “the majority of people,” but it’s a pretty damn big number of them. **Euphonius Polemic** , may I ask where you live and how many miles per week you drive? And do you drive a Tesla, or some other brand? ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/478 "2019-11-07T18:14:29Z")
Ooh, I just thought of one. I was in rural Maryland this summer, really just 20 miles outside of DC’s suburbs, but actually in the middle of nowhere, too. I’d taken the metro into DC for a show, and wanted to get gas on the way home, so the car would be ready for a road trip in the morning. I should have gotten gas near the metro station I parked at, but I figured it would be easier to get gas in one of the several small towns I’d pass through on my way back to where I was staying. Nope, all of those stations were closed, and the pumps were turned off. By that point the needle was on E, and my choices to find a 24 hour station were to backtrack 20 miles, or go 20 miles in the other direction across the river into Virginia. If I’d been in an EV, I could have just charged where I was staying, and it would have been full in the morning. Instead, I had to make a special trip 5 miles into town, the opposite direction of the road trip, but to the nearest gas station. I was worried there wouldn’t be enough gas to get to the nearest station in the direction of the road trip, because that station was 10+ miles away and by that point the low fuel light was on. An extra 20 minutes in the car with inlaws and kids as we go the wrong way to get gas would have been annoying to everybody, and just made me look like a bad planner. Anyway, I don’t understand how people live with cars that can only be fueled up at special places that aren’t available all the time. It’s so inconvenient. If I was forced to live with one of those cars, I’d have to spend loads of money to install a big gas tank at home so I could fill up easily. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/479 "2019-11-07T18:39:08Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > But I’m confused about that SAE J1772 chargers not being “really fast enough for charging on the road.” How much, how fast CAN it charge? Are we talking something like limiting a diesel car to three gallons each time they fill up on the road? Now we’re back to a range anxiety issue. I think J1772 can handle up to 80A, but most are in the 30-48A range, so for 200V (commercial power) that is going to be around 6.6kW. For a Model 3, that translates to about 22mph of charging. That is plenty fast for overnight/workday/destination charging, but isn’t really good enough for fast trip charging. So, it’s not like saying you can only get 3 gallons at a time, but more like it’s a really slow pump that only puts out 1-2 gallons/hour (assuming a diesel truck, adjust numbers for VW TDI analogy). That speed is totally fine if you can let it run unmonitored for 8 hours, but is almost pointless for a 15 minute rest stop. Compare that 6.6kW to a supercharger running at 150-250kW. Those are way overkill for overnight charging, as the car will be full in 40 minutes, but just what is needed for 15 minute rest stop charging. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/480 "2019-11-07T18:50:22Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > **Euphonius Polemic** , may I ask where you live and how many miles per week you drive? And do you drive a Tesla, or some other brand? Also, for EVs, number of miles driver per week is not really the relevant number, rather number of miles driven per single trip or per day. If I was driving 1000 miles per week, I would absolutely want an EV (assuming it was 200 miles/day, not 1000 miles in one day). Charging overnight at home, that 1000 miles would cost me $20, compared to a Prius where (at today’s gas prices) it would be about $50. And, the car would be ready for my daily drive every morning. Now, if I daily had to drive 350 miles at a single stretch, with no convenient supercharger, or pulling a trailer, or something like that, then an EV would not be practical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=25)