# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/481 "2019-11-07T19:09:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So when you wrote this: … you were actually talking about 235 miles of driving over multiple days? Just about every new EV on the market can handle that, even in winter. I don’t buy a new car each year, nor do most people that I know. A ‘new EV’ can handle that - but once it’s a few years old and the battery capacity is down to 80-90% (200-225 miles), it will not be able to handle the trip. And this is an off-the-cuff scenario of something I’d expect to encounter a lot, not some unusual once-a-decade circumstance or contrived example, or even a worst-case scenario. > [@](#): > > Three percent of the population of the U.S. drives more than 50 miles each way to work. You and your neighbors (I’m guessing we’re not talking about a great number of people) are the extreme cases. I’m not saying that you’re bad because of it, but you probably just don’t realize that your commutes are quite far outside the norm. As I said before and you ignored, the 50 miles was a round trip figure. 20-30 miles each way is a pretty normal commute around Research Triangle Park and in numerous other areas, and it’s not some weird unpopulated area that’s completely ‘outside the norm’. It would be really nice if EV proponents could stop confusing round trip and one way distances and pretending like fairly ordinary distances are some kind of contrived edge case. > [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > But yeah, if your forgetfulness happens to coincide with a above average daily commute, AND a need to go out to run a whole bunch of errands, AND a need to visit friends a few towns over, AND you don’t have good supercharger/L3 coverage, AND you have a tight schedule where you can’t spend an hour detouring for an L3 or charging on an L2 or borrowing a ride to compensate for your forgetfulness… > > …well, EV’s aren’t for you. _Yet_, at least, until L3 coverage gets better. So you’re saying that someone who is imperfect about charging, has an active life like I did a lot of when I was younger and occasionally do today, has friends/dates who don’t live in the same town, should not get an EV if they live somewhere like the US Southeast or Midwest unless they want to do a lot of planning around their car or be prepared to borrow people’s cars on a routine basis? That’s matches what I said in my OP, so I guess you’re agreeing with me. It seems like you’re trying to paint this as some kind of extreme edge case that’s not worth considering, but it’s really not that exceptional of a set of circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/482 "2019-11-07T19:10:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In the “real world”, not everyone is like you, and not everyone lives where you do… So please stop taking your personal circumstances, and assuming that EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. is the same as you. At no point have I done that - you, however, insist repeatedly that EVERY SINGLE PERSON is the same as you, that they follow a tightly regimented life where they commute to work, come home at night, do not every neglect to plug in, don’t ever drive 10 miles to go somewhere with people after work, and only drive on routes that have conveniently located superchargers. The pool of people who are perfect automatons that always charge their devices, that come home every night and leave their car charging, that never drive on roads that lack supercharger stations conveniently placed on the route, that don’t ever spend a few nights at a friend’s or partner’s house (where they don’t have a charger installed, or if there is a charger it’s used by one of the house occupants), and so on certainly exists. But it’s not everyone, and acting like it’s unreasonable to examine an EV in the life of someone who’s not just like you doesn’t help your cause. > [@bengangmo](#): > > What’s telling to me is that there’s a need to come up with these sorts of “once in a decade” situations to explain why NOBODY should have an EV. At no point have I argued that NOBODY should have an EV. I don’t think anyone in this thread is arguing that NOBODY should have an EV. But this is another problem I’ve seen in EV threads over and over, the EV proponents can’t deal with actual discussion of EV limitations, and have to come up with strawmen to argue against like ‘NOBODY should have an EV’, bad math like treating a round trip distance as one way distance, and gross exaggeration like claiming that a 10 mile drive for the evening is just like a spontaneous 2000 mile jaunt to Disneyland. And considering ‘how would the EV do in this infrequent but expected situation where an ICE vehicle currently does well’ is not at all unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/483 "2019-11-07T19:15:29Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Well, I also assumed “going out” didn’t mean a 2000-mile road trip to Disneyland, either. I guess that makes me the fool. Driving 10 miles to and from a location is not anything near a 2000-mile road trip to disneyland. I’m not sure why you EV proponents are so invested in trying to pretend that ordinary drives are weird edge cases made up to slander the good name of EVs, but it would be really nice if you’d stop trying to turn really ordinary distances into cross-country trips. > [@](#): > > You said it was a weekend trip. Forgive me for making the absurd assumption that these weren’t work nights. I know you’re being sarcastic, but it is actually an absurd assumption that a weekend trip starts Saturday morning and not Friday night (which is a work night). And it is really absurd to take an off the cuff scenario that someone briefly mentioned, place your own weird assumptions on it, then say that the other person is incorrect about the distances involved based on the assumptions you made, and double down by claiming they’ve changed the scenario because it doesn’t fit what you made up. > [@](#): > > You apparently live someplace where every point of interest is at least 20 miles from everywhere else, and is so rural that there’s not even a shopping center between any of these points. Fine–there’s a chance that an EV is not for you at the moment. I’m really not sure what it is about EVs that makes people unable to distinguish a round trip from a one-way trip, but it’s kind of funny at this point. And I have no idea where the ‘not even a shopping center’ bit even comes from, it’s certainly not something that I included. Are you assuming that every shopping center has charging stations or something else weird like that, or that they’re all right off of highway exits and not places that take a few minutes to get to? > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, as noted by myself and others, this 235 mile trip is still perfectly doable with most of the latest batch of EVs. As noted by myself and others, only if they’re brand new and the weather is good and nothing else is going wrong on the trip. > [@](#): > > I don’t know where you get an hour from. In all likelihood, there is an L2 station somewhere along the course of your cited trip and would be only a small diversion. I get an hour from the fact that an L2 station would take 30 minutes to charge according to you, and that they would involve a small diversion of 10 minutes or so to get to. 30 minutes + 10 minutes there + 10 minutes back on trip is 50 minutes, which is roughly an hour, and definitely an hour if there’s any additional delay on the side trip. > [@](#): > > It’s really quite the opposite. With gas cars, I had to be constantly thinking about my next fillup. Sure, they only took 10 minutes but if I’m going into work or picking up a friend, that 10 minutes is something I had to anticipate and schedule for an earlier time. Well that’s definitely not the case with me or anyone that I know, and I’m pretty sure that most people with ICE vehicles don’t spend their time constantly thinking about scheduling their next fillup. I’m not sure what distance you’re talking about that you’d have to refill an ICE vehicle every day but never run into range problems with an EV, or if you just worry about possibly needing to spend 10 minutes on something at a future time, but neither one sounds very general, and certainly neither applies to me. > [@](#): > > Christ. Here’s [the Edmunds link](https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/). I know, Edmund’s is where I got the cost from. Insisting that there was some dishonesty or deception involved in using the price from that site is not going to stick. I’m not sure why you’re hell bent on arguing it, but trying to pretend that I did something deceptive isn’t going to stick. And I’m not going to go into a detailed back and forth, I’m just going to keep pointing out your unreasonableness. > [@](#): > > You’ve exaggerated your case on virtually every axis. Not sure why you’re so keen on making false claims, but I have not in the least. You have made all kinds of exaggerations in your case, and made weird assumptions then accused me of changing my story when they turn out not to be correct in some Quixotic attempt to demonstrate that electric cars are better than they are. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/484 "2019-11-07T19:36:56Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > As I said before and you ignored, the 50 miles was a round trip figure. I did not ignore it. I asked if your scenario – posted several pages ago about driving to work and then friends and then other friends and then work and whatever – was actually a scenario of 235 miles of driving over several days. If it is, any EV even in cold weather with a 10 year old battery can handle that because it gets recharged each night. > [@](#): > > It would be really nice if EV proponents could stop confusing round trip and one way distances and pretending like fairly ordinary distances are some kind of contrived edge case. It would be really nice if you and others could be more clear about when you’re talking about one way mileage and round trip mileage. Big numbers are thrown around to make a point that something is impossible, when actually it is easy. I mean, for crying out loud, it is a matter of pure fact that if one can charge at home each night, driving 50 miles each way to work, for a total of 100 miles per day, is VERY EASILY done by virtually every new EV on the market today. Even in the cold. Even after 15 years of battery use. This is not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of correcting misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/485 "2019-11-07T19:53:37Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > someone who is imperfect about charging > [@Pantastic](#): > > do not every neglect to plug in I like how we’re now at “we can’t have electronic devices because we’ll run then down to empty and then forget to plug it in, even though we know we’re in an area where there are no fast chargers.” Presumably you also wouldn’t glance at your gas gauge while driving past the last gas station on the way to your house a hundred miles away. Because you live in a fuel desert, yo. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/486 "2019-11-07T20:47:16Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > do not every neglect to plug in There have been a few times where I’ve gotten out of bed, put on slippers, and gone into the garage to plug-in, because I remembered I was going to do enough driving the next day that it would be tight with the state of charge of the car. Way easier than making a special trip or stop for gas. Do you expect the kind of person that can’t remember to plugin, to also be the kind of person that leaves an extra 10-15 minutes early because they need to stop for gas? I expect they’re the kind of person that is just unprepared and late all the time. There is a basic level of adulting that involves having clean clothes, knowing where food can be acquired, and how transportation works. I always get this sense that people who have never driven an EV think it is a huge deal to charge an EV at home. For almost all cases of home charging, this is how it works: get the charging cable from it’s wall hook; open the charge port on the car; shove the cable into the receptacle on the car; go about your life. It takes almost as much time to do as it does to read those instructions. My 6 year old likes to do it. The worst part is when I have to coil the cable up, and it’s been sitting in a pool of melted snow under the car, so I have to wipe my hands off (or just do a half-assed job of coiling it so I don’t get dirty). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/487 "2019-11-07T21:00:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I like how we’re now at “we can’t have electronic devices because we’ll run then down to empty and then forget to plug it in, even though we know we’re in an area where there are no fast chargers.” > > Presumably you also wouldn’t glance at your gas gauge while driving past the last gas station on the way to your house a hundred miles away. Because you live in a fuel desert, yo. The cool part is how they live in remote areas where there is no charging infrastructure (with no possibility of any infrastructure being built), yet there are LOTS of 24 hour gas stations available, with more probably on the way! ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/488 "2019-11-07T22:29:44Z")
Just went to a company presentation that had some heavy speculation on where the automotive industry is heading. The big change isn’t EVs. It’s autonomy. Autonomous vehicles that may or may not be electric are expected to do most of the road miles (at some future date). The ones that are EV will handle these issues automatically. They won’t come pick you up unless they have the range to get you there and reach a charger after with a reserve. So ironically buying an EV may be a waste of money for most of us. What you want is a cheap vehicle you can use to rack up the miles in and use a lot. Then just start getting the cost benefits of EVs through lower prices when you summon a vehicle to handle cases where you would otherwise need another vehicle or a bigger one. And for those of us who do live in the middle of nowhere - well, autonomous will take a few more years before they are available for you. And when they are they may be range extended or hybrids. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/489 "2019-11-07T22:37:23Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > So ironically buying an EV may be a waste of money for most of us. What you want is a cheap vehicle you can use to rack up the miles in and use a lot. Why? If you’re going to “rack up the miles” in something, shouldn’t it be something cheap to drive, like an EV? > [@SamuelA](#): > > Then just start getting the cost benefits of EVs through lower prices when you summon a vehicle to handle cases where you would otherwise need another vehicle or a bigger one. If there are cost benefits to an EV, wouldn’t they be greater if you owned the thing? If you don’t then surely somebody else is skimming off a profit. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/490 "2019-11-07T23:25:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Why? If you’re going to “rack up the miles” in something, shouldn’t it be something cheap to drive, like an EV? > > If there are cost benefits to an EV, wouldn’t they be greater if you owned the thing? If you don’t then surely somebody else is skimming off a profit. The reason is because right now, THIS year, EVs are not as cost effective as used cars like used hybrids. Or used Camry/Corollas. Those cars can be purchased for cheap - 5-10k - and will typically run until 200-300k miles without needing major repairs. EVs that cheap are just Leafs with diminished remaining range. Everything else is north of 30k generally. Maybe you can get a Bolt under 30k with enough incentives. Link to a listing of a vehicle for sale (that isn’t salvage) if you disagree. You will in almost all circumstances not save enough on fuel, at least compared to a car getting better than 30mpg, to make up for a 20-30k upfront price difference. As for “giving profit to someone else” - this isn’t expected to be a problem. Fundamentally the reason is you would be deciding between : A. Own a vehicle that is a depreciating asset that sits parked 95 percent of the time. Every month you make payments -either directly or on paper - to have the asset as well as insurance premiums. You also pay for fuel and maintenance. B. Pay for a timeshare of a vehicle that is only parked 50 percent of the time. (So half the time it is on the road). Also this vehicle has the latest in fuel saving tech and the manufacturer has designed it to need minimal maintenance. Also when it does need fixing, the owner has leverage and pays better rates. Even if you add 30 or 50 percent profit to case B, it is anticipated to be a smaller number. Economies of scale almost always work this way. For trivial example: milk and bread from the store is much cheaper than growing your own wheat and milking your own cow, even though you pay profit to several parties. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/491 "2019-11-07T23:27:12Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > The big change isn’t EVs. It’s autonomy. Autonomous vehicles that may or may not be electric are expected to do most of the road miles (at some future date). The ones that are EV will handle these issues automatically. They won’t come pick you up unless they have the range to get you there and reach a charger after with a reserve. > > So ironically buying an EV may be a waste of money for most of us. What you want is a cheap vehicle you can use to rack up the miles in and use a lot. Then just start getting the cost benefits of EVs through lower prices when you summon a vehicle to handle cases where you would otherwise need another vehicle or a bigger one. My next car will be ready for replacement before there are autonomous cars in general use. At which point I will never buy a car again, so your suggestion makes zero sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/492 "2019-11-07T23:29:10Z")
Anyone here gotten a condo board to install charge points? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/493 "2019-11-07T23:33:53Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Anyone here gotten a condo board to install charge points? State law in CA says that Condo’s can’t prevent a person from installing a charger in their parking space, but the owner pays the cost. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/494 "2019-11-07T23:38:37Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > The reason is because right now, THIS year, EVs are not as cost effective as used cars like used hybrids. Or used Camry/Corollas. Those cars can be purchased for cheap - 5-10k - and will typically run until 200-300k miles without needing major repairs. > > EVs that cheap are just Leafs with diminished remaining range. Everything else is north of 30k generally. Maybe you can get a Bolt under 30k with enough incentives. > > Link to a listing of a vehicle for sale (that isn’t salvage) if you disagree. > > You will in almost all circumstances not save enough on fuel, at least compared to a car getting better than 30mpg, to make up for a 20-30k upfront price difference. > > As for “giving profit to someone else” - this isn’t expected to be a problem. Fundamentally the reason is you would be deciding between : > > A. Own a vehicle that is a depreciating asset that sits parked 95 percent of the time. Every month you make payments -either directly or on paper - to have the asset as well as insurance premiums. You also pay for fuel and maintenance. > > B. Pay for a timeshare of a vehicle that is only parked 50 percent of the time. (So half the time it is on the road). Also this vehicle has the latest in fuel saving tech and the manufacturer has designed it to need minimal maintenance. Also when it does need fixing, the owner has leverage and pays better rates. > > Even if you add 30 or 50 percent profit to case B, it is anticipated to be a smaller number. Economies of scale almost always work this way. For trivial example: milk and bread from the store is much cheaper than growing your own wheat and milking your own cow, even though you pay profit to several parties. So it’s sheerly a cost-vs-inconvenience/unpleasantness thing. (And yes, waiting around for an available EV to arrive is inconvenient. And being in it after that kid barfed in it is unpleasant.) I think I’ll stick to my current plan of using my current car for several more years and then, if I’ve managed to get into a house\* by that point, buying a nice EV. Hopefully a self-driving EV, but in any case it’ll be one that’ll be there right when I want it. - for the plugs ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/495 "2019-11-07T23:55:37Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > The reason is because right now, THIS year, EVs are not as cost effective as used cars like used hybrids. Or used Camry/Corollas. Those cars can be purchased for cheap - 5-10k - and will typically run until 200-300k miles without needing major repairs. The main problem is that you’re then spending 100,000 miles in a used Corolla. That is a perfectly rational decision, but lots of people would much rather do something else. Based on my calculations for me, and where I get my electricity, I need to achieve 65-70MPG in a gas car to have the same CO2 emissions as in my EV. [Here is a list of Chevy Bolts for under $20,000](https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/cars+under+20000/Chevrolet/Bolt/Boulder+CO-80303?makeCodeList=CHEV&searchRadius=0&modelCodeList=CHEBOLT&zip=80303&marketExtension=true&maxPrice=20000&sortBy=mileageASC&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0). I sorted it by mileage, so you can see they’re not all 100k+ beaters. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/496 "2019-11-08T00:25:09Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > The main problem is that you’re then spending 100,000 miles in a used Corolla. That is a perfectly rational decision, but lots of people would much rather do something else. Based on my calculations for me, and where I get my electricity, I need to achieve 65-70MPG in a gas car to have the same CO2 emissions as in my EV. > > . i buy “green power“ from my electric company. if they’re being honest, I’m about zero carbon emissions from my iPace. It’s nit exactly zero, because not all of my charging is at home As for costs savings, that’s not the only factor for many people. If it was, o one would buy a Mercedes or Lexus. Sometimes people nuy more than they _need_. I spent more on an EV because i wanted one, not because I thought the gas savings would pay for the difference. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/497 "2019-11-08T00:36:26Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Just went to a company presentation that had some heavy speculation on where the automotive industry is heading. > > The big change isn’t EVs. It’s autonomy. Autonomous vehicles that may or may not be electric are expected to do most of the road miles (at some future date). The ones that are EV will handle these issues automatically. They won’t come pick you up unless they have the range to get you there and reach a charger after with a reserve. > > So ironically buying an EV may be a waste of money for most of us. What you want is a cheap vehicle you can use to rack up the miles in and use a lot. Then just start getting the cost benefits of EVs through lower prices when you summon a vehicle to handle cases where you would otherwise need another vehicle or a bigger one. > > And for those of us who do live in the middle of nowhere - well, autonomous will take a few more years before they are available for you. And when they are they may be range extended or hybrids. My personal dream is that when near universal autonomous cars are here, then EVs are going to be WAY more prevalent 1. True autonomy will lead to massive weight reductions and hence greater efficiency 2. There will be a lot more “right sizing” of vehicle to the needs of the occasion - so further weight reductions 3. You’ll be able to swap either cars or propulsion system mid trip if need be ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/498 "2019-11-08T01:04:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Yes that’s right. > > All owners with EV’s do that. We’re insane. well some of them are a bit high strung. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > To clarify… NO. You don’t have to 'sacrifice your weekend. This is just silly. I’m not the one who suggested you can make up the difference on the weekend so as to be ready for the following workweek. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > NO. Most won’t need to upgrade your service. At MOST, you’ll need to get a 30 amp circuit put in. Not rocket science. It is if you can’t readily make the upgrade which is a sizeable number of people. Not rocket science to understand this. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > NO. You don’t need to drive “out of your way”. This has been made clear. That’s simply not true in my area. It’s out of the way for almost any trip I take. I made this clear in my posts. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > IF you don’t want an EV… DON’T BUY ONE. But don’t make up lame excuses for why the rest of us who can see why they are great cars (FOR US) should not. I greatly want an EV. When they’ve evolved to meet my needs I will buy one. If you don’t like hearing that they aren’t a direct replacement for ICE cars then don’t read the thread. EV’s in their current state are not a direct replacement for ICE cars. That is a fact. The battery technology is lagging and the infrastructure supporting it not even close to wide scale use. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/499 "2019-11-08T01:04:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > My next car will be ready for replacement before there are autonomous cars in general use. At which point I will never buy a car again, so your suggestion makes zero sense. Well, buy a car intended to last 5 more years. Buying a brand new one planning to drive it 10-15 makes “zero sense”. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/500 "2019-11-08T01:09:49Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > The main problem is that you’re then spending 100,000 miles in a used Corolla. That is a perfectly rational decision, but lots of people would much rather do something else. Based on my calculations for me, and where I get my electricity, I need to achieve 65-70MPG in a gas car to have the same CO2 emissions as in my EV. > > [Here is a list of Chevy Bolts for under $20,000](https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/cars+under+20000/Chevrolet/Bolt/Boulder+CO-80303?makeCodeList=CHEV&searchRadius=0&modelCodeList=CHEBOLT&zip=80303&marketExtension=true&maxPrice=20000&sortBy=mileageASC&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0). I sorted it by mileage, so you can see they’re not all 100k+ beaters. Ok. If I use cargurus, searching nationwide (so it brings up California vehicles that I would need to pay $1200 to ship to me), and turn off accident reported, I see prices of $19000 at a minimum. Closer. Still cheaper to get a used Prius for $9000, you will never make up for the $10,000 cost difference in fuel savings. And you really can’t say a Bolt is all that much better than a Prius - zippier, but both vehicles have an economy car interior. The reason for the cost difference is primarily that there are no 6-year old bolts on the market yet. Which is fine. But it means that _today_, an EV is still not the least expensive reliable option almost everyone in the USA. Not close, either. They will be, but it will be about 4-5 more years. Around the same time that autonomous vehicles, assuming they are 2-3 years late, should become very common… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=26)