# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/541 "2019-11-10T16:16:59Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > That’s a ridiculous statement. No vehicle is adequate for **all** trips. I can’t drive to England, I have to take a plane. I can’t pack all my belongings in my car, so next time I move, I need to rent a truck or hire a mover. My car can’t take me home from a bar after I’ve had a few drinks, or after I’ve been sedated for a medical test. I can’t drive to the middle of a lake, I need another type of vehicle for that. > > So the real question is, does your new car need to do everything your current gas-powered car can do? Or will you accept something that’s better in some respects, but worse in others? Many people today make the latter choice. Some people buy 2-seater sports cars, even though it can’t carry their entire family. Some people buy small cars for commuting, even if it means they need to also keep their SUV for towing their boat. Others buy an SUV that can tow their boat, and also use it for commuting, and live with poor gas mileage. Everything is a compromise, and electric vehicles are a reasonable compromise for many people. Well, but it’s not ridiculous to want your car to do the uncommon but fairly normal trips that people tend to make a few times a year - 300 miles to grandma’s at Thanksgiving, or 450 miles to take the kid off to college, or the two-day drive to your vacation destination. I’m pretty sure that’s the sort of thing **Ruken** was talking about. However, I had also addressed it in the post he was responding to, which made his response confusing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/542 "2019-11-10T17:48:21Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Seriously? Because most households don’t do road trips in two vehicles simultaneously? Therefore they only need one with longer range? Therefore the second one that was purchased because it was needed for a second commute and dragging the kids from soccer to music lessons only needs enough range for the second commute and music lessons? Seriously, because having multiple cars often means multiple drivers. Not everyone lives in a commune and travels together on the love bus. When I was a teenager living at home I had my own life to live and it often involved road trips independent of my parents. This is why I keep harping on battery technology. It’s GOING to change. The EV group keeps talking as if it isn’t. 8000 tiny batteries welded together is not the future. They’re the batteries currently available and fill the niche market’s needs reasonably well but I don’t see them as the battery that replaces the ICE car. It’s probably a good thing we don’t have the next generation battery available now. I think the changeover to EV’s is going to be an evolutionary event comparable to cell phones and the infrastructure needs to be ahead of it. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/543 "2019-11-10T18:55:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is why I keep harping on battery technology. It’s GOING to change. The EV group keeps talking as if it isn’t. Of course it’ll change, but it’s already good enough that a significant percentage of households can replace at least one vehicle with an EV without incurring any inconvenience. I don’t know what that percentage is exactly, I grant you that it’s 100%, but it’s _way_ higher than the current rate of ownership. I’d guess at least 30% of US households. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/544 "2019-11-10T19:00:06Z")
I’m so jealous of these people who get to take road trips so often that they need a special road trip car. I’m serious. I tried to take a 1000 miles road trip this coming Thanksgiving, but then flight prices dropped, and I just couldn’t justify it. Maybe when the kid is a bit older. > [@SamuelA](#): > > Another factor. Tesla charges an average of $0.26 a kilo-watt hour at supercharger. > > The 5-year average gasoline price is [$2.70](https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_gas_price). (and unfortunately, in California where gas is expensive, so is electricity) > > Traveling by supercharger, assuming 300 watt hours/mile (there are charging losses), this is equivalent in cost to a car that gets 3[4.6 miles per gallon](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28%28300%2F1000%29*0.26%29+%3D+%282.7%29%2Fx). > > Or you can go get a Rav4 hybrid, which has more competitive acceleration than previous hybrids, and is bigger inside, and has more ground clearance, and is a little cheaper, and is likely more reliable than Tesla - and get 40 mpg all the time. There’s only a cost savings with an EV if you charge at home. Oh, and it has a tank range of 580 miles. (though in practice you only get 460 miles, the car starts to bully you with a flashing fuel light when you have 3 gallons left) > > Huh. Most EV charging is at home. I guess if I was some road trip superman, who was off driving 3 weeks per month it might matter. Most nights of the week, where is your car? And maybe for you it is at a different hookup or whatever, but for the vast swaths of suburban middle America, it is sitting at home. In 14 months of ownership my car has 12,859 miles, and has used 3068kW of power. If all of that charging had been at home it would have cost me $250. At $2.70/gallon, I’d need a car getting 135+ MPG to match the cost. Even something getting 55 MPG would cost me $630 in gas for the same distance. I’ve actually spent less on charging than $250, because I’ve gotten about $40 in free charging between work and Tesla referral rewards miles. Compared to my old car (26 MPG), I’ve already saved more than the cost of installing a high voltage charging outlet. The more you drive, the more an EV makes sense. That is assuming: less than 250 miles per day, most days start and end from home. Our family’s EV is our primary car. Like I said, in 14 months nearly 13,000 miles. Our secondary car, an old Chevy Suburban, has had 5000 miles put on in 24 months, and that includes the 1000 mile trip to get it home. Re: renting a car for roadtrips. Four times in the last five or six years we’ve rented a car for a road trip. Not because of the EV, but because we needed something that could seat seven (pre-Suburban) or because the road trip didn’t start at home, but someplace we flew. Each time it was no big deal. I went to the Costco Travel website, put in my dates, and picked the full size SUV or minivan. Each time it cost about $500 for a week. For the local rentals I went to the office a few miles away and got the car. For the remote ones it was waiting for me at the airport. If I didn’t need a seven passenger car, it would have been much less than $500. For hypothetical, renting a Ford Fusion for the week of spring break in March will cost me $210. For a once a year road trip, that is not a big deal. That is lots of miles I’m not putting on my own car. If we decide to do another seven passenger road trip from home, I’m really not sure if I’d take my Suburban, or rent one. If you take 400 mile road trips every month, to places that don’t have convenient fast charging, then don’t only drive an EV. If you drive 300+ miles every day, then don’t use an EV. If you only can afford $5000 for car, then unless a used Leaf fits into your life, don’t get an EV. If you want to take frequent road trips with convenient supercharging, but can’t afford a Tesla, then don’t get an EV. If you have no place to charge, then don’t get an EV. If you think rolling coal is funny, then don’t get an EV. You should consider an EV if you plan to spend $20,000 (used) or $35,000+ (new) on your next car; if you have a place where home charging is available or can be installed easily; if most of your miles are commuting or around town; if you don’t mind taking 30 minutes for lunch on road trips (on those seven people road trips a gas stop takes 40 minutes, and we stop much more often than necessary for just gas). And finally, not that anybody has read this far, Teslas are American muscle cars. If you like something that launches very hard, but cruises comfortably, a dual motor Tesla will satisfy. Even a non-performance dual motor will do 0-60 in under 4.5 seconds. Forget all of the other reasons to buy an EV; the driving experience alone is a very strong argument in favor of them. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/545 "2019-11-10T19:24:49Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Seriously? Because most households don’t do road trips in two vehicles simultaneously? Therefore they only need one with longer range? Therefore the second one that was purchased because it was needed for a second commute and dragging the kids from soccer to music lessons only needs enough range for the second commute and music lessons? Please don’t think I’m dissing electric vehicles or the people that own them. I think it’s a great idea. My Wife and I need two very capable 4x4’s six months out of the year. We can’t trade or share vehicles. It doesn’t work that way. We each need one. Every day 6 months out of the year. As far as long road trips go (we did a 4000 mile one last spring), we generally take the newer car. One thousand mile days are not unusual for a trip. An extra hour in route would really, really suck. Now before anyone says, of course, for some people it’s not there yet. I just want to set a reminder to stop telling people that an EV WILL work. All you have to do is trade cars, combine trips ad-nauseum. It would not work for us. Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/546 "2019-11-10T19:34:08Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Now before anyone says, of course, for some people it’s not there yet. I just want to set a reminder to stop telling people that an EV WILL work. All you have to do is trade cars, combine trips ad-nauseum. It would not work for us. Not at all. It sounds like an EV would not work for you and your wife. I get that. Before I bought an EV, I thought “what if I want to drive to Spokane, or San Francisco?” Then I realized I haven’t taken a trip of that distance in 10 years. If I want to do s such a trip in the next 10 years, I guess I’ll figure something out. For us, it would be has easy as taking the wife’s Prius Prime. If that didn’t work, (or she upgrades to a full EV) maybe we fly, or stop for charging, or rent a car. Once every 10 years or so I can endure some hassle in exchange for the daily bliss of driving an EV. Not everyone is like us, and many people have very good reasons for not getting an EV. As others have said, I think they would work pretty good for a sizeable percentage of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/547 "2019-11-10T20:14:06Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Please don’t think I’m dissing electric vehicles or the people that own them. I think it’s a great idea. > > My Wife and I need two very capable 4x4’s six months out of the year. We can’t trade or share vehicles. It doesn’t work that way. We each need one. Every day 6 months out of the year. > > As far as long road trips go (we did a 4000 mile one last spring), we generally take the newer car. One thousand mile days are not unusual for a trip. An extra hour in route would really, really suck. > > Now before anyone says, of course, for some people it’s not there yet. I just want to set a reminder to stop telling people that an EV WILL work. All you have to do is trade cars, combine trips ad-nauseum. It would not work for us. Not at all. Sure, but you’re a pretty well established edge case. Most ICE vehicles won’t work for you, either. You know, this is the sort of thing the OP is actually complaining about - I make what ought to be an uncontroversial point, that most households with multiple vehicles don’t need both vehicles to have range beyond what current EVs have - and multiple people crawl out of the woodwork claiming that no that can’t be right because when they were in college they went on a road trip at the same time their parents were vacationing and oh hey me and my wife both commute 150 miles a day in opposite directions. That’s nice. All I was saying was that EVs could replace some significant number of ICEs right now without any additional charging infrastructure beyond power outlets in garages. That EVs are already “there” for a big enough slice of the market that they could have 10-20% market share in their current form without even looking at L3 chargers and no one would have to make any sacrifices. Add in a reasonably thorough L3 network (and they’re even being built out in my neck of the woods, which is one of the last places you’d expect them) and that number is much, much higher. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/548 "2019-11-10T23:11:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The issue isn’t your manipulation of _numbers_, it is your _manipulation_ of numbers. Then prove it. I gave numbers. So far you have given nothing but hot air. My claim : there are not cost savings in fuel if you don’t have a place to charge it. Like most apartment dwellers and even duplex renters. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/549 "2019-11-10T23:12:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The issue isn’t your manipulation of _numbers_, it is your _manipulation_ of numbers. Then prove it. I gave numbers. So far you have given nothing but hot air. My claim : there are not cost savings in fuel if you don’t have a place to charge it. Like most apartment dwellers and even duplex renters. This is approximately 20% of Americans. Surprisingly small, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/550 "2019-11-10T23:31:47Z")
I don’t think even the most enthusiastic of EV supporters in this thread think it makes any sense to purchase an EV if you can’t do home charging, so it seems a bit odd to focus on that case. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/551 "2019-11-10T23:35:02Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Then prove it. I gave numbers. So far you have given nothing but hot air. > > My claim : there are not cost savings in fuel if you don’t have a place to charge it. They should not buy an EV. Not because of mythical savings, but because not having a place to charge it is a deal-killer. One should NOT rely on level 3 charging like a gas station. And yet, the EPA still says you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/552 "2019-11-10T23:37:21Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I think you’re significantly overstating the infrastructure difficulties for EVs here. With all due respect, I think you are signifcantly underestimating the very real concerns I and some others in this thread have concerning infrastructure in less-populated areas. The deeper I drill into looking at charger sites, the more concerned I get. Outside of metropolitan areas, most Tesla chargers are not superchargers. Outside of metropolitan areas, most other chargers are not Level 3. And Tesla chargers aren’t compatible with other EV’s, so there may be a charger for one at a location, but not the other. In addition, some of the chargers I see at hotels and other businesses are for guests only. EV technology is starting to run up against that last 20%-25% of the population that don’t fit into the category of “most.” Here are some other groups you may have heard of: People who still can’t get broadband at their home People who have their packages delivered by the USPS because Amazon and UPS don’t go there People who have to drive 100 miles to an airport to catch a plane to a bigger city to connect to another flight People with wells and septic tanks, because the sewer lines don’t run there People who have to drive 20 miles to the nearest WalMart and 40 miles to the nearest doctor People who don’t take mass transit to work because [there’s no mass transit where they live](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bus_transit_systems_in_the_United_States) > [@echoreply](#): > > I’m so jealous of these people who get to take road trips so often that they need a special road trip car. I guess I’m one of those people. But we don’t have a “special road trip car.” We have one car. Period. > [@further down by echoreply](#): > > If you like something that launches very hard, but cruises comfortably, a dual motor Tesla will satisfy. Even a non-performance dual motor will do 0-60 in under 4.5 seconds. Forget all of the other reasons to buy an EV; the driving experience alone is a very strong argument in favor of them. Unless you’re one of the literally millions of car owners for whom “the driving experience” is so far down the list of what they’re looking for in a car that it’s a non-factor. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/553 "2019-11-10T23:43:47Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Unless you’re one of the literally millions of car owners for whom “the driving experience” is so far down the list of what they’re looking for in a car that it’s a non-factor. Yeah, pretty much everyone who has ever driven an EV for the first time comes away looking like a 10 year old who got to eat their entire birthday cake. The biggest misconception about EVs is that the vast majority of people don’t really buy them as status symbols or for environmental reasons. They buy them because they are so far superior to regular cars. It’s like saying people are fine with horse and buggy because the driving experience of a Model T doesn’t appeal to them. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/554 "2019-11-10T23:49:56Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > With all due respect, I think you are signifcantly underestimating the very real concerns I and some others in this thread have concerning infrastructure in less-populated areas. > > The deeper I drill into looking at charger sites, the more concerned I get. Outside of metropolitan areas, most Tesla chargers are not superchargers. Outside of metropolitan areas, most other chargers are not Level 3. And Tesla chargers aren’t compatible with other EV’s, so there may be a charger for one at a location, but not the other. In addition, some of the chargers I see at hotels and other businesses are for guests only. > > EV technology is starting to run up against that last 20%-25% of the population that don’t fit into the category of “most.” Here are some other groups you may have heard of: > > People who still can’t get broadband at their home > > People who have their packages delivered by the USPS because Amazon and UPS don’t go there > > People who have to drive 100 miles to an airport to catch a plane to a bigger city to connect to another flight > > People with wells and septic tanks, because the sewer lines don’t run there > > People who have to drive 20 miles to the nearest WalMart and 40 miles to the nearest doctor > > People who don’t take mass transit to work because [there’s no mass transit where they live](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bus_transit_systems_in_the_United_States) Dude, I’m from Saskatchewan. I know about the boonies, because I grew up on a farm with a well and a septic tank, where even Canada Post doesn’t deliver but we had to drive 7 miles to the post office to get the mail. Half my family are still on the farm, and there is still no broadband there. I may live in a whopping great city of 250k now, but I’m not some city slicker who has no clue about rural life. And wouldn’t you know it, my brother on that very farm is considering an EV for his wife who commutes 100km round trip every day. Partly because the school where she teaches has a couple L2 charging stations, but it would be easy enough to install an L2 charger on the farm as well. At the moment there are almost no L3 chargers in the entire province, so this wouldn’t be a car that would be used for more than commuting, but that’s what 99% of her mileage is, so that’s fine. It would not be their only vehicle, and the road trips that it would find next to impossible (at the moment) it just wouldn’t be used for. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/555 "2019-11-11T01:13:55Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I don’t think even the most enthusiastic of EV supporters in this thread think it makes any sense to purchase an EV if you can’t do home charging, so it seems a bit odd to focus on that case. Yeah, we seem to be talking cross purposes here, or some people are resorting to the strawman fallacy. Nobody is making the argument that EVs are practical for everyone, yet that’s what others are trying to refute. In fact, I don’t understand why there is _any_ debate on this issue. Don’t we all agree that EVs are practical for people who: - Park their car in their own garage almost every night - Typically drives less than ~80 miles a day - Have access to another gas or hybrid car for the rare occasion when they need to drive more than ~200 miles in a day, or willing to look for a fast charger every few hours and park there for \>1/2 hour ?? If that’s not you, then don’t buy one. What’s the big deal? There are lots of cars out there that won’t fork for some other people. Why waste time explaining why EV’s don’t work for you? Do you also spend time explaining why a 2-seater pickup truck or a 4-door sedan won’t work for all your trips? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/556 "2019-11-11T01:40:02Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Yeah, we seem to be talking cross purposes here, or some people are resorting to the strawman fallacy. Nobody is making the argument that EVs are practical for everyone, yet that’s what others are trying to refute. > > In fact, I don’t understand why there is _any_ debate on this issue. Don’t we all agree that EVs are practical for people who: > > - Park their car in their own garage almost every night > - Typically drives less than ~80 miles a day > - Have access to another gas or hybrid car for the rare occasion when they need to drive more than ~200 miles in a day, or willing to look for a fast charger every few hours and park there for \>1/2 hour > > ?? Of course not. Don’t you understand that this would require rewiring your entire house with a dedicated nuclear reactor in your basement? Do you have any idea how much uranium costs?! ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/557 "2019-11-11T01:46:24Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > In fact, I don’t understand why there is _any_ debate on this issue. Don’t we all agree that EVs are practical for people who: > > - Park their car in their own garage almost every night > - Typically drives less than ~80 miles a day > - Have access to another gas or hybrid car for the rare occasion when they need to drive more than ~200 miles in a day, or willing to look for a fast charger every few hours and park there for \>1/2 hour > > ?? Heck, throw in “can afford the higher initial price” and even I’ll sign off on that list. What’s getting my back up is the attitude I’m catching from some (not all) proponents is that current EV limitations are insignificant and inconsequential. And for a lot of drivers in a lot of situations, that just isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/558 "2019-11-11T01:52:56Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Heck, throw in “can afford the higher initial price” and even I’ll sign off on that list. > > What’s getting my back up is the attitude I’m catching from some (not all) proponents is that current EV limitations are insignificant and inconsequential. And for a lot of drivers in a lot of situations, that just isn’t true. Like said a couple posts back, this is people talking at cross purposes. the “debate” about electric vehicles usually degrades down to one side bitching that they’re too limiting because someone might up and decide they need to drive somewhere a thousand miles away, and the other side hearing “if they don’t work for me, they can’t work for anybody.” if everyone could at least agree on some core principles like these: - electric vehicles with 250-300 miles of range per charge work for a lot of people - if you regularly go on lots of long drives which exceed that range, they won’t work for you and that’s fine - you can’t really treat an EV like a gas/diesel vehicle; you don’t drive an EV until the battery is flat, then go somewhere to “fill it up.” You plug in every night at home and wake up to a “full tank.” - if you can’t plug in at home, an EV probably isn’t right for you at this time and that’s fine - but again, that doesn’t mean they’re not right for people who can. - nobody’s going to put a gun to your head and take your gas/diesel car away from you - yes, if the “grid goes down” an EV owner won’t be able to charge. but you won’t be able to fill your gas car either because gas stations won’t have power. then we could all get along. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/559 "2019-11-11T02:48:26Z")
I expect non-ICE-powered vehicles will be mandatory in the US within a generation, with grandfathered exceptions. I also expect autonomous controls to be mandatory, maybe with retro-kits to robotize older (i.e. current) vehicles. I don’t expect charging stations to appear in my remote locale anytime soon. I sure don’t want to depend on electro-cars when PG&E promises week-long power cutoffs into the indefinite future. EVs are for those living in congestion with solar cells or fusion reactors nearby. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/560 "2019-11-11T03:13:41Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > if everyone could at least agree on some core principles like these: Definitely agree with all of those points. > [@jz78817](#): > > then we could all get along. Not so sure about that one :). There’s still the problem of misinformation, like claims in this very thread that the best EVs only have 200 miles of total range. Or nonsense that I’ve had to address in person, like that EVs will collapse the grid if there’s more than a tiny percentage of them. There’s another problem that’s a little hard to pin down, but seems to be some form of being bad at probabilistic reasoning. Like if there’s some bad outcome that only happens if a collection of events happen which are (individually) only moderately uncommon, it doesn’t mean the bad outcome is only moderately uncommon. The bad outcome is _probably_ extremely rare. If having to stop for a charge only happens if you forget to plug in (say, a few times a year) and you make a longer than usual trip (say, a couple dozen times per year) and it’s particularly cold (say, 1/4 of the year), then you end up with an event that will likely not happen in the entire lifetime of the car–not something that happens multiple times per year. This type of poor reasoning applies everywhere, but people seem to only employ it in case of big changes, like switching from an ICE to an EV. When people actually experience something themselves, they quickly learn that their mental model wasn’t right. You end up with massive resistance to change, especially since people are less willing to experiment on big purchases like cars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=29)