# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/41 "2019-10-25T14:55:29Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Modern steam technology like VW’s Zero Emission Engine (ZEE) is more suitable for urban roadways than internal combustion engine (ICE) propulsion. ICE’s burn fuel and emit crap when waiting at stoplights or in congestion; steamers only burn fuel (almost without emissions) to build pressure, and are as silent as electrics. Um, the ZEE still burned fuel. back then “zero emissions” meant “zero trace pollutants” like unburned HC, CO, etc. They still would be pumping out CO2 commensurate with their power output. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/42 "2019-10-25T14:56:22Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yup. It’s October 25th, and we have had 22 inches of snow so far this year. We are the only full time residents on our road, so we are the last on the list for the county to plow. Last year we got 30 feet of snow. > > Sure there are 4 wheel drive EV’s. But how’s that ground clearance? > > When they make an EV with the abilities of say a Toyota 4runner Off Road. I’ll think about it. I’m very glad you did not follow this up with “And threfore, EV’s are stupid and nobody should own one.” Because this is what I am seeing frequently from some. Niche vehicles that are electric are coming. They will take a bit longer, so you will have one soon. A Toyota Rav-4 4WD is probably not quite good enough for your needs? A fully electric version is coming in 2022 (Fall 2021). More specialized vehicles to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/43 "2019-10-25T14:58:08Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Sorry I was not clear. I meant an additional car per person. We are a two car family but we can’t fit the whole family in my wife’s car for vacations it is barely large enough for her to pick the kids up after school (Ford Focus) any thing we do as a family requires my car (Jeep Grand Cherokee) in order for us to swap to electrics we would have to own at least a third car for long family drives. Most people I know who own more than one car per driving adult I’d consider rich unless it was some one like my in laws who own 7 cars but only 1 runs at a time. I predict that in 10 years, your family will own at least one car with battery technology (Hybrid, Plug in Hybrid or Electric) ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/44 "2019-10-25T14:58:19Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I have two cars - one EV (LEAF) and one ICE (Matrix). The purchase cost to me for both of these cars was $28,000. I am not poor. Neither am I rich. I’m guessing you are objecting to the rich part of my comment since obviously you have to own two cars for the EV to be practical. One thing I love about the Dope is learning about other people I would never have guessed that some one would buy two crappy cars rather than on nice one. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/45 "2019-10-25T15:24:17Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Rich enough? Many couples and families own multiple cars. > > Sorry I was not clear. I meant an additional car per person. We are a two car family but we can’t fit the whole family in my wife’s car for vacations it is barely large enough for her to pick the kids up after school (Ford Focus) any thing we do as a family requires my car (Jeep Grand Cherokee) in order for us to swap to electrics we would have to own at least a third car for long family drives. Most people I know who own more than one car per driving adult I’d consider rich unless it was some one like my in laws who own 7 cars but only 1 runs at a time. In cases like yours, perhaps the Ford Focus could be replaced by an electric car of a similar type (something like the Nissan Leaf or the forthcoming [VW ID.3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID.3), for example) and keep the ICE-powered SUV for the long family trips. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/46 "2019-10-25T15:26:16Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > If an EV works for your personal situation - fine. But don’t try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION. I don’t think anyone is trying to tell you that, any more than anyone is trying to tell you that everyone should own a four-door hatchback with an internal-combustion engine. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/47 "2019-10-25T15:35:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m very glad you did not follow this up with “And threfore, EV’s are stupid and nobody should own one.” > > Because this is what I am seeing frequently from some. > > Niche vehicles that are electric are coming. They will take a bit longer, so you will have one soon. A Toyota Rav-4 4WD is probably not quite good enough for your needs? A fully electric version is coming in 2022 (Fall 2021). More specialized vehicles to follow. Currently the Rav-4 is too small. Looks rather low to the ground too. Both in ground clearance, and getting in and out of the vehicle (I’m 6’3" 220lbs). I’m VERY picky about the cars I buy. I have special requirements and spend a lot of time in them. I do gravel roads and mountain highways every day. I drive over the continental divide twice every day. Yes I’m an outlier as far as the driving conditions I encounter. What ever floats your boat. I think that the new EV’s are pretty cool. Just not for me yet. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/48 "2019-10-25T16:02:33Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yup. It’s October 25th, and we have had 22 inches of snow so far this year. We are the only full time residents on our road, so we are the last on the list for the county to plow. Last year we got 30 feet of snow. We’re at 18 inches so far this year just down the mountain from you. > [@swampspruce](#): > > I think the Bollinger B1 pretty much beats it in every category except range and price, which are the two bugbears of pretty much every other EV. > > Keep in mind, the B1 is meant as a working vehicle much like the original Land Rovers and Jeeps were so it’ll lose out on amenities like 10 way power leather seats. > > [B1 review](https://www.caranddriver.com/bollinger/b1) > [2020 4Runner](https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/4runner) Bollinger is crazy. Their vehicles are wildly over priced especially compared to Rivian. The R1S has almost 14.5" of ground clearance and can have a 400 mile range with and it is half the price of Bollinger. At this point the only reason to buy one is for the abilty to say you dropped over 100K on a car that is hand built. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I predict that in 10 years, your family will own at least one car with battery technology (Hybrid, Plug in Hybrid or Electric) I’d guess we have one in the next two to three years. Rivian’s R1T meets all most all of the requirements my family needs in a car. We’ll drop the Focus and add an R1T which will be a work car for me. We’ve talked about upgrading the GC to a diesel X5 so we have a more fuel efficient and larger car for hauling the family around. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/49 "2019-10-25T16:13:29Z")
Personally, I’m more skeptical of these new auto manufacturers (like Tesla, Bollinger, Faraday, Rivian, etc) than I am of electric vehicles from established ICE vehicle companies. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/50 "2019-10-25T16:24:38Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Personally, I’m more skeptical of these new auto manufacturers (like Tesla, Bollinger, Faraday, Rivian, etc) than I am of electric vehicles from established ICE vehicle companies. Ford looks like they are joining the EV party in a big way. It’s a business decision for them. There is a [“mustang inspired” (whatever that means) SUV](https://www.motor1.com/news/376636/mustang-inspired-suv-video/) that is going to be unveiled next month. Possibly will go on sale late 2021. The [Electric F-150 is at least on the drawing board](https://www.motor1.com/news/368920/ford-f-150-electric-2021/), and should be in production in the next few years. Ford announced a partnership with an[EV charging network](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/cars/ford-electric-vehicle-charging-network/index.html), with 12,000 charging stations with a total of 35,000 plugs across the US [Ford has invested $500 million into Rivian,](https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/18/just-what-are-ford-rivian-up-to/) which is an interesting partnership ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/51 "2019-10-25T17:32:16Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Apartments only need to put in 110v, 15 amp plugs for overnight charging. Many apartments already have this kind of infrastructure in their parking areas. Many do, many don’t. I just wonder about the numbers. Two of my last eight places might have been able to do it. And in that case it’s the landlords who have to make the decision to install. Which they won’t do unless they charge or feel they’re missing out by not offering an in-demand amenity. Which gives us a chicken/egg scenario. Or there could be a policy mandate. It’s not just apartments. I own my home but not my parking space. So anyway, it’s some barrier to adoption; I just don’t know high. Nothing to support the nonsense the OP describes. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/52 "2019-10-25T17:37:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > We’re at 18 inches so far this year just down the mountain from you. > > Bollinger is crazy. Their vehicles are wildly over priced especially compared to Rivian. The R1S has almost 14.5" of ground clearance and can have a 400 mile range with and it is half the price of Bollinger. At this point the only reason to buy one is for the abilty to say you dropped over 100K on a car that is hand built. > > I’d guess we have one in the next two to three years. Rivian’s R1T meets all most all of the requirements my family needs in a car. We’ll drop the Focus and add an R1T which will be a work car for me. We’ve talked about upgrading the GC to a diesel X5 so we have a more fuel efficient and larger car for hauling the family around. That R1S looks pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/53 "2019-10-25T18:01:27Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Personally, I’m more skeptical of these new auto manufacturers (like Tesla, Bollinger, Faraday, Rivian, etc) than I am of electric vehicles from established ICE vehicle companies. One of these things is not like the others. Bollinger, Faraday, and Rivian have not produced a single vehicle. Tesla has produced around 800,000. It’s been said many times that all the existing manufacturers have to do is drop a motor and battery pack into a car and squish Tesla dead. We can see from the latest batch of EVs that this isn’t true. Look at the Audi eTron, Jaguar iPace, Benz EQC, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, and others, and it’s easy to see that their motors are bigger and less efficient than Tesla, the cars are heavier, they get less range from a given sized pack, they charge more slowly, and so on. That’s not to say they aren’t good cars. People who want conventional trappings from a car, or even (gasp!) want to buy their car from a dealer, will almost certainly be happy with these models. EVs are still an inherently great experience. But the idea that they’re going to roll over Tesla at this point is false. They underestimated just about everything that goes into an EV and spent years underinvesting in them. Also, I have to share this blast from the past–this article is over **10 years** old now: [Watch Out, Tesla, Audi’s e-Tron Is Coming](https://www.wired.com/2009/10/audi-etron/) Pretty sure Tesla never had anything to worry about there… ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/54 "2019-10-25T18:14:07Z")
In rural areas both repair facilities for electric cars and car rental companies are hard to find. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/55 "2019-10-25T18:25:00Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > In rural areas both repair facilities for electric cars and car rental companies are hard to find. I think I brought up rental cars in the context of being able to rent one when you need range. And what you write is very true. I’m a hop and jump from various rental options; that hasn’t always been the case when I’ve lived elsewhere. Although I expect rural homes to have better access to home charging than I’ve had in more built-up areas. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/56 "2019-10-25T18:30:26Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > They’re just so slow. Especially that Tesla Model S P100D. A real putt-putt that thing. “Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for\*\* speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius\*\*.” > **[Al Gore III's Prius could go 100 mph?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/07/al-gore-iii-s-prius-could-go-100-mph.html)** > > Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday... ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/57 "2019-10-25T18:36:40Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > One of these things is not like the others. Bollinger, Faraday, and Rivian have not produced a single vehicle. Tesla has produced around 800,000. The third quarter of this year, Tesla produced 97,000 cars, apparently a record for them. That’s great, but it makes them a niche player in the business. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/58 "2019-10-25T18:38:18Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > “Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for\*\* speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius\*\*.” > > [Al Gore III's Prius could go 100 mph?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/07/al-gore-iii-s-prius-could-go-100-mph.html) Steve Wozniak got pulled over for going 104MPH in _his_ Prius. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/59 "2019-10-25T19:00:14Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I live in St. Louis. If I want to visit my kids in Chicago, that drive pushes the battery range of a Tesla to its dregs. If I want to recharge (highly recommended) I pretty much have to pick a station along I-55 in Bloomington, and many of the sites are away from the highway and only open during business hours. I’d have to plan to add an hour to my trip to get off the highway, find an open station, and then take 40 minutes to get the battery powered up. [Here’s](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=74e52514-0b43-45a1-b573-c9cce6541271) the trip from St Louis to Chicago as estimated by abetterrouteplanner. It stops for 17 minutes at what appears to be a 24/7 supercharger near Bloomington. (Note: it doesn’t leave you with much battery at the end, assuming you have charging available at your destination). ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/60 "2019-10-25T19:47:56Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Steve Wozniak got pulled over for going 104MPH in _his_ Prius. Oh those poor tortured and abused little Hamsters in the engine… I hear Scotty screaming “I kinna’ do it, I’m givin’ 'er all she’s got, Captain…” Personally, EV’s are not yet practical for me, I don’t have a garage or access to high voltage rapid charging, and wall outlet charging would take too long to be practical, the car would be parked outdoors, winters are nasty, and I do tend to do long trips, plus the infrastructure isn’t yet ready, the closest supercharger is about 20 miles away at the local Chevy dealer for the moment, my emissions-fixed '12 Golf TDI is the most practical solution, 35-46 MPG, and _FUN_ to drive! I’ve had the misfortune of driving a prius, and it just isn’t for me, too boring, to soulless, anemic power, I’d rather get a root canal without Novocain than drive a smegging prius. once electric infrastructure is available in my area, however, I will _seriously_ consider an EV, something Golf sized with a decent range (sorry, the E-Golf range is sub-optimal, and the ID series isn’t coming to the US for a while, and Teslas are still too bloody expensive, my Golf TDI cost me $9000. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=4)