# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/921 "2019-11-30T00:54:16Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > By the same token though… > I have remotely turned on a charging station for one of my customers who had forgotten her wallet. > Try doing that for petrol. > We can get a key ring dongle…so you don’t need wallet or card for better than 80% of thhe charging network her. I keep $20 in the car just in case I forget my wallet. If/when I use it, I replace it. Easy-peasy. Way to move the the goalposts by “answering” my question with an unrelated analogy. I’ll ask again; can one signup & use _all_ of the charging networks right away? > [@bengangmo](#): > > And something else I’ve been meaning to bring up… > I remember driving vack in the 80s and 90s… > I would leave work at 930 pm for an 80 km commute home. > That commute would not have a single petrol station open. > I remember living in rural areas where the local gas station would close at 5pm and it was a 50/50 chance as to finding one open on a Sunday. Those days required just as much, if not more planning around fuel stops as an eye trip car does now. > It’s surprising how quickly we forget. In that situation you fill up on Sat well before you need to. In an ICE, a unit of fuel goes in at the same rate whether your car is 75% full or 5% full, unlike what **YamatoTwinkie** states in post #851. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/922 "2019-11-30T02:19:46Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > I’d like to add one more point because it’s connected to your OP. > > Can we assume that your example is correct if most gasoline-powered vehicles don’t come in the form of skateboards with motors? > > In which case, are you saying that most EVs worldwide are like Teslas or what are sold in the U.S. and not like the ones sold and used in Asia? Your logical fallacy skills need work… The thing is, we need to compare apples to apples. You came in and started claiming that EV’s could not go up hills or on rough roads. Then we find you are talking about cheap rickshaw-like things or cheap buses in Asia. Fine. They suck. But please; compare cheap-ass EV’s to cheap-ass ICE cars. They both cannot do things like go on rough roads. I’m sure that right now, there is not a $600 EV that can transport 20 people up rough roads with hills. There is also not a $600 ICE vehicle that can do this. You are being critical of vehicles in general for not being able to do all things at an incredibly low price point. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/923 "2019-11-30T02:44:27Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > In which case, are you saying that most EVs worldwide are like Teslas or what are sold in the U.S. and not like the ones sold and used in Asia? Look, I’m just going to speak for myself, a typical person who drives a Jeepney to my luge lessons in Bangalore while listening to my collection of 8-track sea shanties, enjoying a refreshing Coke and OJ and scratching my third testicle: You are a little out of touch, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/924 "2019-11-30T07:22:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I can understand the last part of your statement - obviously it’s going to be hard to drive an 500km range EV 1000 km if there are no charging stations in between whatsoever. I am still confused about the first part though. I mentioned rough roads AND minor “blue” highways. The limiting factor is access to fuel or power sources, not bothersome bumps and ruts. But I don’t know if soggy mud would be a problem - I’ve skidded through deep, treacherous mudholes. Do EVs short out when immersed? I managed that in ICE vehicles. > [@](#): > > I wonder if you can point me at any factual source that says that an ICE car can handle rough roads better than an EV car. Thanks. I never said that, so no pointing. I said, _“To get an ICE past [long] barren stretches, carry jerry-cans of fuel. For an EV… what, load extra batteries in the trunk? Set out a solar panel array and wait a few hours or days? Hire a tow to the next charger?”_ My point: extending an ICE vehicle’s range on any quality of roadway is CURRENTLY more straightforward than for an EV. Sure, a bright beautiful future awaits. 🆒 > [@](#): > > And also, I wonder if you can point me at a drive I could do from point A to point B where there is no electrical infrastructure in between for a stretch over 500km. Somewhere with no access whatsoever to a 30 amp circuit suitable for an electrical stove or dryer. Following gravel tracks shown in my _Guia Roji_ road atlas from Chihuahua to Piedras Negras likely qualifies. And when PG&E killed electricity to much of northern California recently, a 300mi / 500km dead zone would not have been hard to find. I also said, “I wouldn’t want to try driving a Tesla from California to Costa Rica anytime soon.” That’s based on my summer drive looping Arizona-Honduras-Alaska-Arizona. Facilities with fuel or power were pretty scarce along some stretches and not only in areas of unrest. That reminds me of scooting around metro Oaxaca dodging burning taxis, buses, and barricades. EVs dominated the taxi market ~120 years ago and likely will again. How well do Teslas burn? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/925 "2019-11-30T08:01:34Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Do EVs short out when immersed? I managed that in ICE vehicles. They’re totally fine. Better than an ICE–at least an ICE without a snorkel. This got me into trouble recently, though. The recent rains in CA produced a giant puddle in the road to my condo. I took my Model 3 through it without the tiniest care. And it was totally fine in terms of the drivetrain–not the tiniest risk of hydrolock or otherwise damaging the engine. But the water did pop off my hubcaps, which were run over and destroyed shortly after :(. As for the other stuff, if we can get the point where the only people still driving ICE vehicles are ones doing California-Costa Rica runs and the like, I think we can say that EVs have “won”. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/926 "2019-11-30T08:38:08Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > As for the other stuff, if we can get the point where the only people still driving ICE vehicles are ones doing California-Costa Rica runs and the like, I think we can say that EVs have “won”. Don’t minimize it; a fair amount of traffic motors between the US and Central America. And many parts of our planet are nowhere near hosting substantial EV infrastructure anytime soon. ICE vehicles will remain necessary in many places for a long time yet. EV’s depend on a reliable power grid. (California doesn’t always qualify.) Yes, EVs will soon “win” in stable, prosperous areas. The other 90% must still putt-putt along. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/927 "2019-11-30T14:09:22Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > …Do EVs short out when immersed? I managed that in ICE vehicles… When I was a child there was a patch of road near me that used to flood every time we had a big rainstorm. The kids use to go “swim” there. Yes, right in the road, in water that was probably contaminated with sewage from the drains. And this in a pricey suburbs. Times have changed… Anyway, we routinely pushed car out of that puddle. Cars would approach. We would warn them the puddle was deep. They would ignore us. We would clear out of the way. And 10 minutes later a gang of children would push the car back out of the puddle, because the engine failed. Are ICE cars better sealed today? They still need air to burn the gas. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/928 "2019-11-30T14:19:54Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Don’t minimize it; a fair amount of traffic motors between the US and Central America. Yeah, I’m just gonna go ahead and minimize it. 3,000 mile over-the-road trips have nothing to do with this topic. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/929 "2019-11-30T15:45:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Are ICE cars better sealed today? They still need air to burn the gas. all depends on where the engine air intake is. usually they poke through the front core support next to the radiator, roughly around the level of the headlights. When we had the big flood in Detroit in 2014, I knew my Ranger’s air inlet was ~36-38" high so I could get through flooded intersections. Those suckers who thought they could barge through the same water in their Sonatas and Civics got a rude awakening. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/930 "2019-11-30T17:45:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I wonder if you can point me at any factual source that says that an ICE car can handle rough roads better than an EV car. Thanks. > [@RioRico](#): > > I never said that, so no pointing. I said, _“To get an ICE past [long] barren stretches, carry jerry-cans of fuel. For an EV… what, load extra batteries in the trunk? Set out a solar panel array and wait a few hours or days? Hire a tow to the next charger?”_ My point: extending an ICE vehicle’s range on any quality of roadway is CURRENTLY more straightforward than for an EV. Sure, a bright beautiful future awaits. 🆒 You ALSO said: > [@](#): > > I’ll agree that even the most rugged EVs can’t handle rough roads… So I will repeat my question in a slightly different way… What evidence do you have that the most rugged EV’s can’t handle rough roads? (I assume you are implying that equivalent ICE cars CAN handle these same roads) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/931 "2019-11-30T18:32:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You ALSO said: > > So I will repeat my question in a slightly different way… What evidence do you have that the most rugged EV’s can’t handle rough roads? (I assume you are implying that equivalent ICE cars CAN handle these same roads) Not directed at me I know, but is there a mass marketed EV that can do the same as say a simple Jeep Wrangler at the same cost price? There will be some day I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/932 "2019-11-30T19:08:52Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Not directed at me I know, but is there a mass marketed EV that can do the same as say a simple Jeep Wrangler at the same cost price? > > There will be some day I suppose. I will certainly stipulate that at the present time, an equivalent EV costs more up front than an equivalent ICE vehicle. You’re right that this will change in the near future. Of course, if one looks at TCO (total cost of ownership), and EV may be less expensive today. However, I was asking the person about the generalization that: > [@](#): > > I’ll agree that even the most rugged EVs can’t handle rough roads… I’d like to know if they think there is something inherent in EV’s that make it so they cannot handle rough roads? I mean, they could have said “There are no current affordable EV’s in production that can handle rough roads.” But they did not say that. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/933 "2019-11-30T19:23:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You ALSO said: > > > [@](#): > > > > I’ll agree that even the most rugged EVs can’t handle rough roads… You’re taking me out of context like a fucking Faux propagandist. I said EVs can’t handle rough OR good roads (“blue highways”) when charging stations are rare and distant. Perhaps you have evidence otherwise. Oh wait, look at all those broken gas-guzzlers! > [@](#): > > So I will repeat my question in a slightly different way… What evidence do you have that the most rugged EV’s can’t handle rough roads? (I assume you are implying that equivalent ICE cars CAN handle these same roads) Now your’re sea-lioning for sure and thus safe to disregard. Have fun there all by yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/934 "2019-11-30T20:39:35Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’d like to know if they think there is something inherent in EV’s that make it so they cannot handle rough roads? I mean, they could have said “There are no current affordable EV’s in production that can handle rough roads.” But they did not say that. Is there a reason you stubbornly ignore the last half of **RioRico’s** statement? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/935 "2019-11-30T23:20:07Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Is there a reason you stubbornly ignore the last half of **RioRico’s** statement? I’m not stubbornly ignoring anything. I will stipulate that EV’s cannot handle long drives with no ability to recharges at any place along the way. I’d like to know why people keep saying that EV’s cannot handle rough roads, without giving any evidence. The first part of his statement. What I see is a lot of goalpost moving. Suddenly now it’s about AFFORDABLE EV’s. What I see is a lot of opinions with no evidence. What I see is a lot of poor comparisons being made. What I see now is accusations of “sealioning” ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/936 "2019-11-30T23:31:43Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I will stipulate that EV’s cannot handle long drives with no ability to recharges at any place along the way. Please point out how that statement is functionally different from: > [@RioRico](#): > > I’ll agree that even the most rugged EVs can’t handle rough roads… where the charging stations are rare and distant. Because I don’t see it. And yet you continue to clip the last half of the statement off and argue only against the first. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/937 "2019-12-01T01:20:07Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > What I see is a lot of goalpost moving. Suddenly now it’s about AFFORDABLE EV’s. No goalpost moving there. Affordability has been a topic in this thread from the first page all the way through. As for goalpost moving, I’ve also noticed some by the EV advocates. _Everyone will charge their EV’s at home, overnight._ Of course, you can’t really get a full charge from a standard 120VAC outlet, so you’ll have to get an electrician to run a 240V line to your garage and then install a Level 2 charger that might cost[$159.99](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Level-2-EV-Charger-Compatible-with-Leaf-Volt-Tesla-Prius-220V16AJ1772/225522204?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=14427&adid=22222222227278245487&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=338673980792&wl4=pla-660863370171&wl5=9022877&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=118770228&wl11=online&wl12=225522204&veh=sem&gclid=Cj0KCQiAw4jvBRCJARIsAHYewPOENeVrdwhywdmYC4kAc77_JFQoohJ_FrD1iBWP5aQw63FZBoIJdSYaAh4DEALw_wcB). . . or it might cost[$899.](https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80/hcs-60-48-amp-ev-charging-station?gclid=Cj0KCQiAw4jvBRCJARIsAHYewPNp0eO6Ofcsw2JdLVIfY4hYgQVhEoVVBJp0RBUMGkQFF7oWrYp_ZfUaAm8xEALw_wcB) _You can go 300 miles on a charge._ If it’s a Tesla. Except maybe not, because you should really only charge to 80%, which translates to 270 miles. _And recharging on the road is easy._ You can find a Level 2 charger fairly easily in most major metropolitan areas, which means you can get a relatively good charge in four hours. Most people don’t want to stop four hours every 270 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/938 "2019-12-01T03:03:34Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > _And recharging on the road is easy._ > You can find a Level 2 charger fairly easily in most major metropolitan areas, which means you can get a relatively good charge in four hours. Most people don’t want to stop four hours every 270 miles. Maybe you can help me. Do level 3 chargers exist in the US? ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/939 "2019-12-01T03:21:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Your logical fallacy skills need work… > > The thing is, we need to compare apples to apples. > > You came in and started claiming that EV’s could not go up hills or on rough roads. Then we find you are talking about cheap rickshaw-like things or cheap buses in Asia. > > Fine. They suck. But please; compare cheap-ass EV’s to cheap-ass ICE cars. They both cannot do things like go on rough roads. > > I’m sure that right now, there is not a $600 EV that can transport 20 people up rough roads with hills. There is also not a $600 ICE vehicle that can do this. > > You are being critical of vehicles in general for not being able to do all things at an incredibly low price point. The fact that you acknowledge that “a $600 EV” is an EV does not show that my “logical fallacy skills need work.” ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/940 "2019-12-01T03:23:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look, I’m just going to speak for myself, a typical person who drives a Jeepney to my luge lessons in Bangalore while listening to my collection of 8-track sea shanties, enjoying a refreshing Coke and OJ and scratching my third testicle: > > You are a little out of touch, my friend. If you can show that “a typical person” (i.e., what represents people worldwide) doesn’t use cheap EVs but expensive ones, then I’ll believe you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=48)