# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1141 "2019-12-11T21:41:54Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Nitpick. Category 1 doesn’t work unless they also meet 2(a), (b) and (c). People aren’t buying Tesla’s is they can’t charge at home and usually drive less than 250 miles in a day. Yes, that’s all true. But I thought it went along with the details I gave, and needlessly complicated the post. I debated whether to include that or not, but I guess you vote I made the wrong decision. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1142 "2019-12-11T21:49:16Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Nitpick. Category 1 doesn’t work unless they also meet 2(a), (b) and (c). People aren’t buying Tesla’s is they can’t charge at home and usually drive less than 250 miles in a day. Those people in category 1 (only) certainly exist - they don’t have a charging setup at home and rely on either workplace charging or frequent local supercharging to get through the day/week. It sounds like far too much annoyance for me, but some people put up with it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1143 "2019-12-11T22:17:45Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m aware that EV fanatics on this thread have been making baseless and untrue claims, but thanks for the reminder. No, you are wrong. Here are some “baseless and untrue claims” for you: -I have always remembered to plug my EV in. -Many EV’s entering the marketplace have a range of over 350km -EV batteries do not explode when you look at them - The charging network for EV’s is getting larger every month -An EV is not suitable for some people’s usage (such as yourself). These people should not buy an EV at this moment in time. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1144 "2019-12-11T22:20:54Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m ‘presuming’ it because for all of the people that I know, they happen at least a few times per month. Ah, here’s the problem. “All the people you know” are not “all the people in the world.” You are suffering from the delusion that everyone is just like you. They are not. You cannot use an EV. Do not buy one. But do not presume that you know about what “everyone else” needs. Many of us are telling you this; An EV is not for you. It is not for many people. But you seem DETERMINED to tell us what we need, and why we are all stupid for promoting EVs. Give it a rest. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1145 "2019-12-11T22:57:31Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m ‘presuming’ it because for all of the people that I know, they happen at least a few times per month. And none of the statistics that EV proponents have come up with address the issue, or offer any support the idea that most people in the US who drive a car only take trips longer than the 70 miles that was under discussion (or the 200 miles that really runs into charging issues) once per year or less. I’m sure there are “many” people who don’t take longer trips by car, but I certainly don’t agree with the claim that they’re such a large majority of people that it’s fair to completely ignore occasional trips and focus only on daily commute when evaluating whether an EV works. Of course the EV proponents address this issue - they tell you and your hard-driving folks _not to get an EV_. EVER. > [@Pantastic](#): > > This is typical of EV fanatics in this thread; they want to pretend that any situation that isn’t ideal for EVs is some weird edge case like “a daily commute of half a billion miles”. The fact that NONE of my examples have actually used a long daily commute (one of them used a zero length commute, one treated the commute as negligible for the trip, and the first used a 50-mile round trip commute which is supposedly in the ideal range for EVs) but you want to write as though I’m talking about a long daily commute is really telling. You simply don’t want to look at realistic vehicle use scenarios. Blah blah blah. The long and short of it is that EV-friendly use scenarios ARE realistic vehicle use scenarios, for a significant percentage of american drivers - and that percentage is getting more significant all the time. As for those other realistic use scenarios, where a person drives who-cares-how-many miles each weekend and can’t possibly plug in while there and can’t possibly plug in en route and can’t possibly remember to plug in at home either, we all have an answer for those people’s use cases too: screw 'ew. Screw 'em with a rusty rake turned sideways. The vehicles will not work if you don’t charge them and we’re not pretending they will. If your circumstances prevent you from charging enough to cover your mileage, be those circumstances long distances or backwoods destinations or user incompetence, those circumstances mean that you shouldn’t have an EV as your only car. Get a plug-in hybrid and drive it like an EV instead. > [@Pantastic](#): > > And they’re a lot more common than EV proponents on this thread want to pretend. No, they’re not. Not because they’re not fairly common, but because the EV proponents aren’t pretending otherwise. We just _don’t care_ about such people, because they’re not the _majority_, and thus they’re not really a wall to EVs becoming mainstream. EVs don’t need 100% coverage to stop being ‘niche’. They don’t even need 50% coverage. What percentage of people in the US own a Ford? According to [this](https://www.statista.com/statistics/227772/people-living-in-households-that-own-a-ford-usa/), 13% or so. But Fords are not _niche_. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1146 "2019-12-11T23:13:23Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > [/quote=Ravenman] > > 90 percent of this thread has been people telling you that you should never own an EV, and you arguing that your experience with cars and being unable to remember to plug electronics in at night is broadly applicable to life in America. I’m aware that EV fanatics on this thread have been making baseless and untrue claims, but thanks for the reminder. [/QUOTE] “Most people remember to plug their shit in at night so they can use their phone/car the next day” is a “baseless and untrue claim?” Dude. WTF. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1147 "2019-12-11T23:55:46Z")
I think they would work great as a commuter vehicle. But then I also have a pickup truck to haul things and a van for longer trips or when taking lots of stuff or people plus I have a garage to keep it in. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1148 "2019-12-12T00:01:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I think they would work great as a commuter vehicle. > > But then I also have a pickup truck to haul things and a van for longer trips or when taking lots of stuff or people plus I have a garage to keep it in. I get the impression that electric pickup trucks are a near-future thing. (Even if we discount the funky-looking Tesla one.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1149 "2019-12-12T00:03:42Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I get the impression that electric pickup trucks are a near-future thing. (Even if we discount the funky-looking Tesla one.) I expect the electric Ford F-150 is going to be a tipping point. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1150 "2019-12-12T01:07:30Z")
How many dopers on this thread are commuters living in apartment complexes whose detached parking doesn’t provide plug-ins? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1151 "2019-12-12T05:45:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Ah, here’s the problem. “All the people you know” are not “all the people in the world.” > > You are suffering from the delusion that everyone is just like you. They are not. No, that’s what EV proponents are suffering from when wax poetic about how EVs are no trouble at all for people who don’t have a ‘half billion mile commute’. At no point have I made any statement implying that ‘all the people I know’ are anything like ‘all the people in the country’ (I’ve been limiting my discussion to the US, as the stuff about 3rd world vehicles is really a sidetrack). I certainly find the assertion that the vast majority of drivers only drive a trip of 200 miles once a year or less to be rather questionable, and certainly odds with the road trip stats that I can find (though none seem to directly hit that question). But here’s something for anyone who might believe what you’re saying to think about: If the set of people who drive cars outside of the single-charge range of typical EVs more than once a year is so small that it’s unreasonable to discuss them, how then were there so many people of just the small set that have switched to EVs that superchargers in California were seeing hours-long queues for charging over Thanksgiving? > [@](#): > > You cannot use an EV. Do not buy one. > But do not presume that you know about what “everyone else” needs. Yeah yeah, you keep flinging insults around and trying to pretend like it’s substantive discussion. But I don’t think you’re convincing anyone other than the ‘OMG you must love spending time at gas stations’ crowd who have already drunk the EV Kool-aid of much of anything. > [@](#): > > Many of us are telling you this; An EV is not for you. It is not for many people. But you seem DETERMINED to tell us what we need, and why we are all stupid for promoting EVs. Give it a rest. When have I told you what you need, exactly? And let’s limit it to when I’ve told you what vehicle is suitable for you since that’s obviously what the statement means in context, I’m sure I’ve said something along the lines of ‘you need to calm down’ at some point. And when have I said that anyone is stupid “for promoting EVs”? Again, it has to be for the general case - objecting to “promoting EVs **with false claims** ” or “promoting EVs **by insulting people** ” isn’t an objection to “promoting EVs” in general but to specific It’s weird how much time EV proponents spend telling me that I’m determined to tell them things that I haven’t actually said and don’t believe. It’s almost like what you’d expect if they have nothing of substance to say. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1152 "2019-12-12T05:56:29Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Aren’t you building a strawman in imagining a scenario where an EV owner is renting an ICE vehicle “multiple times per month”? Because if someone _really_ needs to do that, they should trade in the EV, or buy a second car. No, I was responding to someone who suggested that people who currently use an ICE vehicle should switch to an EV and just rent an ICE vehicle whenever they need to make a trip that would need charging. I, and most people that I know, routinely make such trips two times a month or more, so I used that as my estimate of how often one would need to rent an ICE vehicle. EV proponents want to act like the 112 mile (225 mile round trip) drive that I’ve made to visit a friend and that friends have made to visit me or that the 110 mile (220 mile) round trip my parents make every other week for medical treatment are weird exception cases that aren’t even worth considering, comparing them to a ‘half billion mile commute’. But these trips are not something that I, people that I know, and people that I work with would find unusual. And I don’t think that nationally they’re absurdly unusual, and no one has posted any cites that show them to be extremely unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1153 "2019-12-12T06:12:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Of course the EV proponents address this issue - they tell you and your hard-driving folks _not to get an EV_. The use cases I’ve been talking about are not what I would consider ‘hard driving’, and none of the statistics posted support treating ‘takes occasional road trips’ as some rare exception case. > [@](#): > > Blah blah blah. The long and short of it is that EV-friendly use scenarios ARE realistic vehicle use scenarios, for a significant percentage of american drivers - and that percentage is getting more significant all the time. I have never at any point disputed that “a significant percentage” of American drivers - figures as low as 5% or 10% qualify as “a signficant percentage” (As you said, only 14% of Americans drive Fords). What I dispute is the contention that huge swaths of drivers actually live in EV-friendly use conditions, and the later contention that people who make occasional longer trips are in the minority. > [@](#): > > As for those other realistic use scenarios… we all have an answer for those people’s use cases too: screw 'ew. Screw 'em with a rusty rake turned sideways. Right, and you’re saying 'screw ‘em with a rake turned sideways’ to a much larger group of drivers than you think you are. Also I snipped out the part where you added silly extra conditions to scenarios because repeatedly pointing out specifics of the strawmen gets old. > [@](#): > > No, they’re not. Not because they’re not fairly common, but because the EV proponents aren’t pretending otherwise. We just _don’t care_ about such people, because they’re not the _majority_, and thus they’re not really a wall to EVs becoming mainstream. I don’t believe your claim that they are not the majority. Do you have any statistics supporting the claim that people who make occasional (as in multiple per year or month) trips over 200 miles are in the minority of US drivers? “Daily commute” numbers are irrelevant, as this isn’t the daily commute that’s being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1154 "2019-12-12T14:10:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I expect the electric Ford F-150 is going to be a tipping point. That depends upon what you use your truck for. If its like many people and its just another vehicle they just drive around, yes. if its like my truck and I have to use it for pulling trailers or hauling things, I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1155 "2019-12-12T14:17:30Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > How many dopers on this thread are commuters living in apartment complexes whose detached parking doesn’t provide plug-ins? Even if you own a home that doesnt mean you have a garage space or even a space close to the house where you could plug one in. Many condos and smaller homes parking is a free for all and I know people who own a home but the street is down a hill and they walk up a sidewalk to get to their house. It’s similar issue if you own a diesel and you need to plug in a block heater in cold weather. I hate to sound negative but for the issue of having a convenient place to plug it in, EV’s are going to be a kind of richer persons domain for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1156 "2019-12-12T14:45:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > if its like my truck and I have to use it for pulling trailers or hauling things, I doubt it. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make – are you saying an electric F-150 isn’t suitable for pulling trailers or hauling things? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1157 "2019-12-12T14:52:35Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > That depends upon what you use your truck for. > > If its like many people and its just another vehicle they just drive around, yes. if its like my truck and I have to use it for pulling trailers or hauling things, I doubt it. While the bed payload of the EF-150 will probably be similar to the regular F-150 I would expect the hauling numbers to double. The torque to weight ratios of electric drivetrains allows for much better towing if they are set up for it. Of course if you are using a 3/4 ton with 5th wheel hitch then you are right dropping down to a half ton truck won’t get it done. While I doubt it will happen I’d like to see the EF-150 take a shot at their own Raptor or better yet a Ram Power Wagon. Short haul trucking applications are great for EVs its only at long distance they start to fall on their face. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1158 "2019-12-12T14:56:52Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Aren’t you building a strawman in imagining a scenario where an EV owner is renting an ICE vehicle “multiple times per month”? Because if someone _really_ needs to do that, they should trade in the EV, or buy a second car. > > No, I was responding to someone who suggested that people who currently use an ICE vehicle should switch to an EV and just rent an ICE vehicle whenever they need to make a trip that would need charging. I, and most people that I know, routinely make such trips two times a month or more, so I used that as my estimate of how often one would need to rent an ICE vehicle. EV proponents want to act like the 112 mile (225 mile round trip) drive that I’ve made to visit a friend and that friends have made to visit me or that the 110 mile (220 mile) round trip my parents make every other week for medical treatment are weird exception cases that aren’t even worth considering, comparing them to a ‘half billion mile commute’. But these trips are not something that I, people that I know, and people that I work with would find unusual. And I don’t think that nationally they’re absurdly unusual, and no one has posted any cites that show them to be extremely unusual. So what you’re saying is that you don’t think a electric vehicle is right for you based on your driving patterns. That’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1159 "2019-12-12T15:42:01Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Yeah yeah, you keep flinging insults around and trying to pretend like it’s substantive discussion. But I don’t think you’re convincing anyone other than the ‘OMG you must love spending time at gas stations’ crowd who have already drunk the EV Kool-aid of much of anything. You seem to be getting upset at very little. I simply told you that you should not get an EV. I said you should not presume to know what everyone else needs. No insult given nor intended. You just seem really REALLY determined to “prove” that EV’s are terrible, and only good for “fanatics”. I have no idea why this is so very important to you, and why you feel personally insulted when someone disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1160 "2019-12-12T15:50:31Z")
So my wife and I bought her a Leaf plus that we are picking up tomorrow. It has the DC rapid charger port. Other car is my 2013 C-Max Energi (a PHEV with enough all electric that it handles a fair amount of my daily driving on electric only) which has made the trip from the Chicago area to the Eastern coast a few times. No need to drive the Leaf on that trip … but … I’d still like to be able to someday. Anyone know of a good app to route a trip with charging along the way? A 50 minute stop every 3 hours clearly adds time to the hypothetical trip but starting off and stopping for breakfast after 3 then lunch then dinner then a last leg would do it. IF there were rapid charge stations located where I’d need them. Tesla has them (along with the option for a longer range battery and a good on-board mapping software to find them and mao the route too). Anyone know of what the roll out plans are for the DC rapid chargers on the interstates? They are very good from New York to Boston and along much of the West coast … getting around in between though? Again this car’s 220 mile range will more than suffice for our needs and my wife will quickly love not having to stop to get gas. We have my car that can do the trip when we want to do that sort of drive (rarely, like once every few years) or can rent a vehicle easily for a week. No question though that while having a PHEV and a pure EV are great choices for my household they are not for quite a few others. The infrastructure is not ready for full replacement of the fleet yet. A good fraction of it? Yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=59)