# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/101 "2019-10-28T00:46:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Here’s the magical EV that people need if they are going to make the switch: > > - 1500km/900 mile range minimum > - Full charge in 10 minutes or less > - Inexpensive chargers located at home or on every block > - Can tow 15,000 pound Recreational Vehicle > - Can park in a small parking space > - Is able to haul 2000 pounds of hay > - Can operate as a self contained working van for plumbing contractor > - Costs under $10,000 > > This is the magic EV that would please everyone. > > Or, alternatively, we could get away from the idea that one single vehicle type will please everyone. nobody said they had to be a one size fits all. You started a thread to bitch about an issue that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/102 "2019-10-28T00:49:31Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Your OP comes off as rather sanctimonous. Funny how being irritated with blatantly false propaganda is “sanctimonious.” There is an unbelievable amount of misinformation out there. I don’t know if it’s being produced by paid astroturfers or ignorant individuals, but it’s widespread. I’ve found that even minimal exposure to EVs–whether in the form of using PHEVs as a “starter EV”, or explaining away the misapprehensions in person, or just giving them a ride in my Tesla–is enough to “convert” most people. They’ve had years of exposure to anti-EV propaganda, and with the illusion that EVs are just crappy gold carts, so it’s not a surprise that most would be hesitant. But EVs are such an improvement that the doubts fall away as soon as they learn a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/103 "2019-10-28T00:56:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > nobody said they had to be a one size fits all. > > You started a thread to bitch about an issue that doesn’t exist. The issue may not exist with people HERE ON THE SDMB. But it does exist in the actual world. [Please see post 13](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21936061&postcount=13)for an actual example of what pisses me off. This is the kind of crap I see regularly; lie upon lie upon lie about EV’s ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/104 "2019-10-28T01:03:54Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Your math is off. 240V is shorthand for twice the voltage _and_ a significantly increased amperage. > > Sometimes a standard 120V outlet is all that’s easily available. They can support about 12 amps of continuous load. For a Model 3, that provides 4-5 miles of range per hour of charging, so maybe 40 miles overnight. > > If you have a dryer outlet, you can do 240V at 24 amps. That’s 4 times the charge rate, and gives an efficiency boost, so you end up with 20-22 miles per hour, or 200+ overnight. > > And if you really need it, you can get a hard-wired installation that will charge at 48 amps. That’s 44 miles per hour, which means you can complete a 100% charge in under 8 hours. > > I don’t know what the Rivian will support as far as charging goes, but there’s no reason they can’t match the Model 3 in charge rate. They’ll probably end up with a lower miles/hour, because being a big truck the overall efficiency is lower. But I’d be surprised if they can’t charge at 30 miles/hour with a beefy home charger system. Thanks for that. I’ve been planning on a 50 amp outlet in my garage when the time comes but I didn’t feel like re doing the changing math so I kept it a 15 amp and just doubled the voltage. Its good to know I’ll be able to charge over night. Though we have talked about needing to steal power from my parents or in-laws since visiting them is a greater than 200 mile drive. Needing a 10 hour stop over to leave with a full tank is still worrisome but not impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/105 "2019-10-28T01:16:30Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Thanks for that. Sure thing. The amps really makes a huge difference here: it multiplies with the voltage boost and gives an efficiency boost as well. So even a basic dryer outlet is a huge (~5X) increase. Definitely worth it if you can install it on the cheap at your family’s places. I have an outlet in my dad’s shop he uses for a big arc welder; so far I haven’t needed it but it’s there if required. The Tesla Mobile Charger will handle up to 32 amps with a beefy outlet. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/106 "2019-10-28T02:12:02Z")
What percentage of hotels can charge an EV with something more than an extension cord on a regular outlet while you’re illegally parked in a fire lane next to the building? What percentage can charge more than one? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/107 "2019-10-28T02:33:35Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > What percentage of hotels can charge an EV with something more than an extension cord on a regular outlet while you’re illegally parked in a fire lane next to the building? > > What percentage can charge more than one? I’ve been to, oh, maybe a dozen hotels while driving an EV. I’d say roughly half had a 110 outlet somewhere that I could plug into. If you look in parking garages you sometimes find them in convenient places. One hotel had a regular blacktop parking lot, but a plug on each of the streetlights. Another had outdoor outlets apparently for use by landscapers/maintenance crew so if you parked next to the building you could make a 10’ charging cable just make it to the car. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/108 "2019-10-28T02:49:11Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > What percentage of hotels can charge an EV with something more than an extension cord on a regular outlet while you’re illegally parked in a fire lane next to the building? Ballpark? If [this site](https://www.evhotels.org/) is to be believed, around 7% with dedicated charging. That’s likely diluted by an immense number of places outside the US, as well as small motels that one probably wouldn’t expect chargers at. Bigger names like Hilton are probably \>50%. Tesla has their “destination charging” program that puts L2 chargers (will complete a full charge overnight) at lots of places around the country. They have an easy to search map that will find places along your route. Obviously it’s not quite at the level where it would be surprising not to have EV charging (as contrasted with, say, WiFi), but I think we’ll be there in not too many years. Chargers aren’t that expensive or difficult to install. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/109 "2019-10-28T03:13:14Z")
The thing is, an EV doesn’t have to work for everyone. Even if market penetration was low, like 5% or even 10%, that would be huge. And even with the folks for whom an EV doesn’t work for, my guess is that the % of people for whom an EV would work really well for is much greater than 10%. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/110 "2019-10-28T03:28:21Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I’d be cool with that, as long as gasoline users pay their share of the health and environmental costs they impose on the public. Is that really a fair calculus? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/111 "2019-10-28T03:36:37Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The issue may not exist with people HERE ON THE SDMB. > > But it does exist in the actual world. [Please see post 13](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21936061&postcount=13)for an actual example of what pisses me off. This is the kind of crap I see regularly; lie upon lie upon lie about EV’s OK… well… so? Is it affecting EV sales? No. Is it stopping battery research? No. The entire planet is driving hard to the hoop to develop the technologies needed for an EV world and it’s not to save the whales. It’s because there’s a huge need for better batteries for cars, phones, power tools etc… ICE vehicles are dead when batteries improve. There isn’t going to be any adjustment or convincing of anyone. It will be a stampede. There isn’t anyone’s opinion that will delay this process one nanosecond. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/112 "2019-10-28T03:41:48Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > “Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for\*\* speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius\*\*.” > > [Al Gore III's Prius could go 100 mph?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/07/al-gore-iii-s-prius-could-go-100-mph.html) And now the karmic Al Gore circle is complete. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/113 "2019-10-28T03:47:58Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Is that really a fair calculus? Sure, as long as fossil fuel power plants also pay their relative share (and therefore the costs would be built into the price of electricity for EV users). That said, making CO2 emitters pay for their full costs would probably wreck the world economy in a way that’s actually counterproductive. The cost of climate change is immense and will get worse. And of course there’s something to the fact that past emitters of CO2 got a free ride up until now. So I don’t actually support making CO2 emitters pay their full externality costs. However, I equally don’t support going out of our way to discourage EV use, since that’s going to be a key pillar in avoiding the worst effects of climate change. That would be an unbelievably stupid move. Charging even a small fraction of the externality cost, and using that money to subsidize clean energy systems, is the right approach. It minimizes disruption to the economy (which we need to actually produce the machines we will use to move to clean energy), while getting at least a little closer to the actual balance of costs they impose on the public. Of course, some idiots will scream “but the free market!” at these subsidies, even though there’s nothing market-based about imposing your costs on someone else. If your neighbor dumped his trash on your property instead of paying for garbage removal and then yelled about the free market as an excuse, you’d think he was a fucking moron. The same principle applies here. Unfortunately it’s too late to avoid all the costs of climate change, but if we don’t intentionally sabotage our best tools for reducing CO2 emissions, there’s a chance at avoiding the worst effects. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/114 "2019-10-28T04:06:05Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > FThere is an unbelievable amount of misinformation out there. I don’t know if it’s being produced by paid astroturfers or ignorant individuals, but it’s widespread. Part of it is something we’ve kinda danced around in this thread: Culture War, in specific the rural types being annoyed that people are once again reminding them that most people in this country are urban, and that that has certain consequences for public infrastructure and policy decisions. Map urban voters to a political party and rural voters to a political party and you have the rest of your answer. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/115 "2019-10-28T07:30:41Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > There is an unbelievable amount of misinformation out there. I don’t know if it’s being produced by paid astroturfers or ignorant individuals, but it’s widespread. and here comes the “EV skeptics are just paid shills or anti-Elon shorts.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/116 "2019-10-28T10:12:00Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > and here comes the “EV skeptics are just paid shills or anti-Elon shorts.” Naw; the anti-Tesla shorts have a different and easily recognizable style. They mostly post dumbass conspiracy theories on Twitter (read [this thread](https://mobile.twitter.com/RyanDoherty47/status/1187388170242932738) if you want a typical example–the guy lost his life savings after the big uptick last quarter and still can’t admit his error). They tag everything with #TSLAQ. I think **Derleth** is probably right about this being a “culture war” thing. There’s a certain category of people for whom it’s very important to their identity that EVs suck, and are willing to spread nonsense at every turn. I have one in the family that fits this pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/117 "2019-10-28T12:13:59Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Naw; the anti-Tesla shorts have a different and easily recognizable style. They mostly post dumbass conspiracy theories on Twitter I’m not part of any conspiracy but I confess I’m not fully convinced on Tesla’s ability to thrive in a marketplace where the established manufacturers are supplying an equivalent product. VAG are already touting the base ID’s under £30k and such as the Audi E-tron are already much cheaper than the equivalent Tesla. [Here’s a review](https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/ev-test-audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-vs-jaguar-i-pace) that suggests the Audi is already the better car and If I had that money to drop It’d be a no-brainer. Where Tesla does score is the infrastructure, I think VAG etc. know this full well and if they tackle that in parallel then I see Tesla reverting to a niche vehicle manufacturer but certainly with the potential to be a major player in infrastructure supply and energy management. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/118 "2019-10-28T14:08:45Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > You forgot one: “EVs still generate emissions because the power to charge them is generated by burning fossil fuels.” EVs are way more efficient than ICE powered cars, so even if 100% of your power came from coal you’d be generating fewer emissions than a gas powered car. And really no one’s electricity is 100% from coal, and we’re moving towards more cleaner power sources every day. I went to a presentation by an energy expert at Harvard once, and someone asked this question. He said that there are parts of China where an electric vehicle will be powered by dirty coal plants and actually produce more pollution than a modern efficient gas vehicle. But he said that in all of the US, the EV will be cleaner, and in much of the US it will be dramatically cleaner. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > …I will ask though… in your personal situation, how often do you make a drive in excess of 500+ miles? Some people do so very regularly, and this may make an EV impractical for them… I think you are underestimating the value of having a vehicle in your garage that meets your needs. I have a midsized sedan and a C-Max energi hybrid electric. In many ways I love the C-max. And of course a plug-in hybrid has no range issues – it drives great on gas, and one tank is good for about 400 miles. But I’m currently frustrated because I don’t have a vehicle large enough to haul the stuff and people I need to haul twice a year.The sedan’s trunk doesn’t contain some large items, and the C-Max has this giant battery where the storage space should be. We’ve taken both cars sometimes. Because that’s easier than renting a large one for those two trips. Because we always have a time crunch as we prepare to go, and renting is a PITA and takes a chunk of time when that time is really valuable. So it drives me nuts when people dismiss range concerns saying “how often do you need that?” > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > A plug-in hybrid would be great for many. Benefit of running on full electric for frequent short trips, and have the flexibility of gas for infrequent longer trips. > > A RAV-4 plug in hybrid is said to be coming soon. Woo hoo! That might be my next car, then. I seriously considered the hybrid, but I really don’t want to give up being able to mostly drive on electricity. It’s lovely to almost never need to buy gas, I believe it does produce fewer emissions (my electricity is mostly hydro) the car gives me access to a valuable urban parking space. > [@dtilque](#): > > …And I wonder about people who buy a PHEV and then brag about how long they’ve gone without using the gas engine. Yes, that does happen. Why are they lugging around this heavy ICE that they don’t use? see above. It’s really nice to only need to buy a tank of gas every month or two, but it’s also really nice to be able to leave for a long trip with no extra planning other than filling the tank somewhere en route. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/119 "2019-10-28T14:29:24Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Has anyone ever calculated the winter range of a fully charged Tesla in the Midwest vs. So. Cal.? The site i linked to before (abetterrouteplanner) allows you to input outside temperature - you can play with this number and see the effect on charge times or routing, if you just want to get a ballpark idea. For instance, the Minneapolis, MN -\> Sioux Falls trip you specified can be comfortably done without stopping in a long-range model 3 for at least half the year, but once temperatures start creeping below ~40F, it starts requiring a partial charge at the 24/7 Worthington, MN supercharger. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/120 "2019-10-28T15:04:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So it drives me nuts when people dismiss range concerns saying “how often do you need that?” Often, I think people with range concerns only focus on the downsides of EV charge times, and fail to consider the potential upsides. I installed a 240V plug in my garage at a convenient location. It literally takes me less than 5 seconds of effort/wasted time to get a full “tank” for my EV at home, compared to 5+ minutes of time (diverting, parking, filling, paying) to fill up my previous gas vehicle at a station. All those 5+ minute gas station stops add up. At once a week, that is more than 4 hours of time wasted every year. When your chief concern is dealing with a car rental once or twice a year to handle the 500mi trip to grandma’s, or the “hassle” of tacking on a 45 minute EV pit stop after 280 miles of continuous driving (when chances are good you may have wanted to stop for lunch/dinner anyway), overall you may _save_ time every year getting an EV. So the “how often do you need that?” is a perfectly legitimate question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=7)