# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1181 "2019-12-13T19:01:58Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You say ‘unlike me’ then state the exact position that I’m arguing in this thread. You may not be an EV proponent yourself, but you’ve drunk enough of their kool-aid to believe the strawmen they keep trying to attach to me. Or can you cite the post where I have said that EVs do not work for any subset of the population? so you’re saying I’m not an EV proponent but yet I believe in EVs? 😕 Oooo-Kaaay > [@Pantastic](#): > > Or maybe, like I said and you ignored, I used that estimate as a safe estimate to avoid a useless argument about oil changes. Or maybe like I said & _you_ ignored. You’re using information that has been out of date for over a dozen years. Once you show yourself to use outdated information & then double down on it you lose credibility. > [@Pantastic](#): > > Yeah, and what you wrote is a nonsequitor, since at no point did I discuss someone who \*\*needs \*\*4 oil changes per year. May I remind you of your post, [#1134](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22021507&postcount=1134)… > [@Pantastic](#): > > **If I assume people are mostly following a ‘3 month’ oil change schedule which is the most oil changes most people will do in normal driving conditions,** then it must mean that I’m only talking about people who drive 20,000-40,000 miles per year, and that therefore they’re all edge case drivers. But I just picked the highest reasonable number of oil changes to avoid being accused of lowballing the number of oil changes by the extremely oil change avoidant people in the thread and to give them the best benefit of the doubt. Picking the ‘worst reasonable case’ for the side you favor is the reasonable thing to do when examining a situation, and insisting that everyone who sticks to the old ‘3 month oil change’ recommendation must be driving 20k-40k miles per year and therefore is an edge case is not. I guess, technically, you didn’t use the word, “need” but you sure referenced it as normal. > [@DSeid](#): > > Let us be precise. The limiting factor item is not individuals who take “frequent” long distance driving trips, but those who need _that_ vehicle to be able to do that trip. The vast majority of families that own one car own two cars, and for whatever number of individuals there are who take “frequent” long distance driving trips, an other vehicle in the household that is long distance capable (such as my PHEV for my family) would be sufficient.\*\* Do you have any estimate how many individuals take “frequent” long distance driving trips? I know of only a very few, and none of them who are not two car families.\*\* Hi, I’m **Spiderman** , allow me to introduce myself. Would you like to meet a number of my friends who also fall into this category. Good, because I’m gonna need your hands to count all of the people that I know who fit that also. I have one car. If I get a second vehicle, it ain’t gonna be an EV. It’s not the weekday commute where I’ll benefit so much, it’s the weekend trips where I’m going beyond their range that I’d get a cost savings but at a cost of time & range anxiety because I’m not driving the interstates of CA but in more rural areas that have a fraction of the chargers, & some of those are restricted like Level II for hotel guests only. > [@DSeid](#): > > Just an aside - a fair amount of the new charging infrastructure coming is actually part of [VW’s diesel cheat settlement](https://www.wired.com/story/volkswagen-electric-car-charging-electrify-america-plug-charge/): > > > [@](#): > > > > Electrify America is the cheery name for the initiative that Volkswagen created and funded as part of its settlement with the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board after getting caught cheating on emissions tests for millions of diesel cars. Over the coming decade, it will spend $2 billion (40 percent of it in the Golden State) building a national network of fast chargers any electric car can use. VW plans to have 500 of those in place, all over America, by the end of this year. That’s great for CA EV owners, not so much for the rest of the country. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1182 "2019-12-13T19:32:34Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Hi, I’m **Spiderman** , allow me to introduce myself. Would you like to meet a number of my friends who also fall into this category. Good, because I’m gonna need your hands to count all of the people that I know who fit that also. > I have one car. If I get a second vehicle, it ain’t gonna be an EV. It’s not the weekday commute where I’ll benefit so much, it’s the weekend trips where I’m going beyond their range that I’d get a cost savings but at a cost of time & range anxiety because I’m not driving the interstates of CA but in more rural areas that have a fraction of the chargers, & some of those are restricted like Level II for hotel guests only. … Nice to meet you. And I have no interest in selling you an EV. But I do not comprehend your point. IF (a big if for you I get) an EV was a superior choice for the vast majority of your driving (you have easy access to charging most days, and most days are comfortably within the range of the EV) and the car was to be a second car _in addition to_ the ICE one you have now that meets and would continue to meet your weekend trips needs, then why would you feel that the EV was crossed off the list? You have (or your household has) the other car on those weekends to use as you use it now. Now as a _replacement_ vehicle for your ICE one it would be a _horrible_ choice, that I completely agree with. People who take long distance road trips frequently would be best off with _a_ vehicle in the household that is able to drive on gas. No question. They do not need two vehicles so capable. And I am unconvinced that the number of people who take frequent (even twice a year) long distance road trips is a very high percentage. Non-zero, I get that. (Hi Spiderman and friends! Loved the cartoon!) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1183 "2019-12-13T19:54:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Let us be precise. The limiting factor item is not individuals who take “frequent” long distance driving trips, but those who need _that_ vehicle to be able to do that trip. The vast majority of families that own one car own two cars, and for whatever number of individuals there are who take “frequent” long distance driving trips, an other vehicle in the household that is long distance capable (such as my PHEV for my family) would be sufficient. I think that the vast majority of families that own two cars own them because they have two regular drivers, they don’t generally have one car that gets used to for in-town driving and one that is used just for long trips. So both are people who would be looking at replacing an ICE with an EV, but both can’t actually qualify as good candidates because if they both get one, they lose that qualifying condition. > [@](#): > > Do you have any estimate how many individuals take “frequent” long distance driving trips? I know of only a very few, and none of them who are not two car families. I’d also suspect that having a place to charge at home and having more than one vehicle are not independent factors but strongly correlate instead. A “shitload” of people by the definition of ‘frequent’ and ‘long distance’ that seem to be used in this thread. “Frequent” definitely includes twice a month, and for some posters includes “more than once per year”. “Long distance” seems to be anything over about 75 miles (75 miles one way = 150 miles both ways = runs out the charge on a new, 100% charged Leaf) to 125 miles (250 miles both ways runs out the charge on a new, 100% charged non-extended Tesla). The longer distances (high end of that or higher) also move out of the range of used or cheaper vehicles and are currently the province of only the more expensive end (while a $10k used ICE or Hybrid doesn’t give up any range). The idea of driving from outlying areas of NC to one of the hospitals once every week or two for treatment at one of the high end hospitals or adjacent clinics is not considered odd. (Duke Hospital is consistently ranked in the top 20 in the country and you can’t fit a top 20 hospital even in each of the 50 states) Nor is driving the from RTP, Greensboro, Charlotte, or Greenville to go to a concert (or party or visit a friend) at one of the others. Hell I know people who drive the 150+ miles from Wake Forest to Charlotte just to shop at Ikea. It’s not an every day or even every week thing, but it doesn’t need to be to be ‘frequent’. How representative is this of the country at large? I don’t know - but my estimate is that it is WAY more common than EV proponents seem to think. In fact, I think their aversion to seriously considering trips like these really hinders their ability to ‘sell’ the idea of EVs to people. > [@](#): > > Still, let’s imagine that one in four (a pretty high estimate I’d think) of those with access to home charging and no need to haul both take frequent long distance road trips and do not have access to a second car to use for those trips. No, doing the estimate this way has a significant problem, because for the most part only half of the people in two-car households should count as having access to a second car for those trips. Once one car switches to an EV, the other driver no longer has access to a long-range car to borrow. The way you’re counting here counts both drivers in a house with two ICE vehicles as good EV candidates, but that isn’t accurate since as soon as one gets an EV, the other isn’t a good candidate anymore. I also think your 1 in 4 estimate is an extremely lowball estimate with the definition of ‘frequent’ and ‘long’ that seem to be common in this thread, and would put it at more like 50-75%. I’m sure there are some areas where people don’t drive much, but like I said above doing ‘long’ road trips is extremely common in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1184 "2019-12-13T19:59:39Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Or maybe like I said & _you_ ignored. You’re using information that has been out of date for over a dozen years. Once you show yourself to use outdated information & then double down on it you lose credibility. > > I guess, technically, you didn’t use the word, “need” but you sure referenced it as normal. No I didn’t reference it as ‘normal’, the quote you posted refers to it as a high end estimate. That’s what ‘the most’ means, that it’s the highest number of changes someone might make in a year, not what’s ‘normal’ or ‘required’ or some other thing you’re tacking on. And I didn’t use information that has been out of date for over a dozen years, much less double down on it. I used information that is still currently in date by your own cite - that there exists a recommendation for changing oil every 3 months that some people still follow even if they don’t need to. In case you don’t get it, that means that ‘four oil changes per year’ is perfectly good as a top end estimate, as people who follow the old recommendation will do four per year, and people following newer estimates will do fewer. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1185 "2019-12-13T20:00:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Show me the specific posts where someone claimed that super chargers are “always” conveniently located or the posts that L2 chargers are at “virtually all” hotels and shopping centers. > > You can’t, because nobody is saying those two things, and so you made those strawmen up. As far as conveniently located superchargers: > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > What are you talking about? Supercharger stations are almost always just a block or two from the highway exit, just like gas stations. They don’t take 30 minutes to get to if you’re sticking to major routes, and it would be pointless to go to one if they were. > [@begbert2](#): > > Seriously, the bullshit about having to look up a charger. You also have to find gas stations. What, you say you can just drive until you pass one? Like that’s any easier than just having your car tell you where to find one. Absurd. The hotels comes from: > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I drive a Model 3, so I have a good idea how long charging takes. And I can tell you that a round trip from Raleigh to Charleston doesn’t take an extra three fucking hours in a decent EV, nor does it require choosing a special hotel or any of the other bullshit you mentioned. It’s pretty clear from context that ‘choosing a special hotel’ meant choosing a hotel specifically for whether it has a charger or not. The shopping center comes from the combination of: > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The friends and family I visit all have single-family homes, and I can charge there if needed. Just about every shopping center has some L2 chargers, so I can go there in a pinch. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > You apparently live someplace where every point of interest is at least 20 miles from everywhere else, and is so rural that there’s not even a shopping center between any of these points… I don’t know where you get an hour from. In all likelihood, there is an L2 station somewhere along the course of your cited trip and would be only a small diversion. It’s pretty clear what is meant by the “not even a shopping center between any of these points” in the context of charging, and with the context of the prior comment about L2 chargers in shopping centers. This is posted for the benefit of other posters, I don’t really expect you to change from the style you’ve used for the whole thread. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Insults are not allowed in this forum. > > If you feel a particular post or poster has insulted you - report them. > > Otherwise, please refrain from making this accusation. If you refrain from making insults, I will be happy to refrain from pointing it out. Otherwise I will continue to point out your consistent, repeated behavior when I feel like it. You guys really aren’t doing your cause any favors with the rampant hostility, shifting goalposts, dismissive attitudes, and misuse of statistics. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1186 "2019-12-13T20:12:42Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I think that the vast majority of families that own two cars own them because they have two regular drivers, they don’t generally have one car that gets used to for in-town driving and one that is used just for long trips. So both are people who would be looking at replacing an ICE with an EV, but both can’t actually qualify as good candidates because if they both get one, they lose that qualifying condition… Yes, but in most such households, when they take a long-distance trip, they are both in the same car. I know that my husband and I are somewhat unusual in that we share two cars, and whoever is driving farther gets the one with better mileage. This is easier for us than for some couples because our hip-to-toe length is about the same. I don’t actually know how hard it would be for other households to share two cars, instead of having his&hers cars. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1187 "2019-12-13T20:13:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But I do not comprehend your point. IF (a big if for you I get) an EV was a superior choice for the vast majority of your driving (you have easy access to charging most days, and most days are comfortably within the range of the EV) and the car was to be a second car _in addition to_ the ICE one you have now that meets and would continue to meet your weekend trips needs, then why would you feel that the EV was crossed off the list? You have (or your household has) the other car on those weekends to use as you use it now. For me, I would cross it off my list because it doesn’t make any sense. This completely flops on a cost perspective, as the entire cost of the EV is extra instead of just the cost of an EV over the ICE vehicle. If I buy a new vehicle and drop months worth of gas money on a charger for it, I don’t think that cutting my gas bill even to a negligible amount will be a net savings over the life of the car, especially since I’ll still have to pay insurance and taxes on it. Adding a second car to maintain and plan around will increase what I have to do, so it fails from a convenience perspective. I don’t really gain any capability other than being able to loan It just doesn’t make sense unless the car is so cheap that I will actually save money by buying it over the 5 years or so I’d expect to have it, and that’s wildly not the case for current EVs. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1188 "2019-12-13T20:15:00Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No, I dispute that an EV is a good option for someone if by using one they need to add 25%, 50%, or more to the travel time on their non-commute trips and plan the trip tightly around the car’s capability and risk getting stranded because they have to go down to near-empty. It’s not about ‘managing to make an EV work’, it’s about whether the EV is actually an option that is at least on par with a less expensive ICE vehicle. If you’re going to have to add 50% to the travel time every time you take the kids to visit grandma (or a variety of other trips) that means the EV is not a superior or even equal option, it’s a significantly inferior option. Your definition of “on par”, of course, means “exactly the same”. And also explicitly disallows benefits in one arena to compensate for deficits in another. And I’m pretty confident that the only person who thinks that EVs take 50% longer to get places is you. Certainly not anybody who’s actually using them or knows how the cars work in practice. > [@Pantastic](#): > > I think that if less than 10% of your trips are long, that qualifies as ‘occasional’ rather than ‘frequent’. [snip] I think your estimate of what’s a rare amount of driving is wildly off. So according to the internet the average driver goes 29.2 miles per day, and 13,476 miles per year. 29.2 times 365 is 10,658. That would suggest that the average person logs 2,818 ‘atypical’ miles per year. If that distance is driven at an average of 45 miles per hour (a number picked out of the air to clumsily account for delays, stops, and bathroom breaks), then that comes out to just under 63 hours of atypical driving per year. That’s 5.25 per month, on average. A little over an hour per week - enough to let somebody regularly visit somebody a half an hour away. But let’s presume for a moment that they don’t regularly visit somebody a short ways away and uses all their ‘atypical’ miles on longer jaunts. If these jaunts are all only two hour trips (which actually means five hours, since you include the trip back and puttering around while there when you talk about such things), that gives the average person nine trips per year - less than one a month. If you’re talking about going four hours away, the average person takes at most seven per year. If you’re talking about a full-day eight-hour-each-way drive, with some puttering around while there, they max out at three. Fewer if they salt in the occasional shorter trip here and there as well. Just to bring some actual data into the discussion. > [@Pantastic](#): > > I find idea that most people who already have a car will tend to fly for a trip to somewhere 2 hours drive away, pay for an uber from the airport to the destination (and any additional destinations) rather than just drive the trip in the first place. You don’t even save time with that because of all of the airport delays. Oh, I thought you were talking about _real_ trips, the ones that the average person only takes a couple of times a year. With the goalpost momentarily placed at two hour (each way) trips to places where you can’t possibly find a charge anywhere, people who have to make such trips on the regular will be wanting a fairly new-model Tesla, if they’re dedicated to going pure EV. Alternatively they could go hybrid, though with the plug-in ones you have to worry about the gas in the tank going bad from disuse. > [@Pantastic](#): > > Yeah, I’m not a pushover who just accepts bogus numbers that people make up and claims that don’t match reality, and I don’t fold when multiple people are ganging up and being insulting to me. Clearly if I had an argument style of folding when people turn nasty, you’d provide statistics… except that I’d already be out of the thread if that were the case, so there would be no one to provide them to. The problem with your argument style is that you’re pointlessly abrasive, you refuse to stand behind anything you’ve said and claim you never said it (claiming any reference to it is a strawman), and you seem devoted to distorting what other people have said as well. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1189 "2019-12-13T20:21:23Z")
My wife, as of tonight, will have the Nissan Leaf Plus. I have the CMax Energi PHEV. If she needed to drive over the comfortable range of the Leaf one day she’d borrow my car and I’d use hers. Would not work if we were both going on different long distance road trips the same weekend true. That has literally never happened. YMMV of course. You and spouse can’t swap cars for a weekend? Okay. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1190 "2019-12-13T20:21:27Z")
Note: a couple of my numbers in my ‘average’ calculations are a bit off - I mussed some of the math and couldn’t edit it all in time. Still, one gets the point. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1191 "2019-12-13T20:22:15Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > As far as conveniently located superchargers: > > > [@Dr. Strangelove](#): > > > > What are you talking about? Supercharger stations are almost always just a block or two from the highway exit, just like gas stations. They don’t take 30 minutes to get to if you’re sticking to major routes, and it would be pointless to go to one if they were. You have substantively misrepresented what he said. Tesla Superchargers are virtually always within a block or two of **a** freeway exit. You have reinterpreted his words to mean Superchargers are “so abundant that there is always one conveniently located.” In other words, the plain reading of **Dr. S** ’s correct statement is that where there is a Supercharger, it is close to a freeway exit; into the wrong statement of if there is a freeway exit, there is a Supercharger. > [@](#): > > The hotels comes from: > > > [@Dr. Strangelove](#): > > > > I drive a Model 3, so I have a good idea how long charging takes. And I can tell you that a round trip from Raleigh to Charleston doesn’t take an extra three fucking hours in a decent EV, nor does it require choosing a special hotel or any of the other bullshit you mentioned. > > It’s pretty clear from context that ‘choosing a special hotel’ meant choosing a hotel specifically for whether it has a charger or not. No, you’re making the exact same misrepresentation of what he said. There are hotels in many areas where some kind of charging is available. That doesn’t mean every hotel has L2 chargers. You factually misrepresented his statement, probably because you’re angry at him. I note you’re also ignoring his correct statement that it doesn’t take three extra hours to drive between those cities. > [@](#): > > The shopping center comes from the combination of: . . . . > > It’s pretty clear what is meant by the “not even a shopping center between any of these points” in the context of charging, and with the context of the prior comment about L2 chargers in shopping centers. No. The context is that you don’t like what he’s saying so you read his comments in order to magnify disagreement with them. > [@](#): > > This is posted for the benefit of other posters, I don’t really expect you to change from the style you’ve used for the whole thread. Jesus, are you going to keep whining about insults, keep making them, or both? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1192 "2019-12-13T20:42:14Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > For me, I would cross it off my list because it doesn’t make any sense. This completely flops on a cost perspective, as the entire cost of the EV is extra instead of just the cost of an EV over the ICE vehicle… Honestly this post doesn’t make much sense. Yeah the scenario is of those who are looking to buy a second household car. (Or to replace one of the household’s current two cars.) You aren’t? Then yes getting one makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1193 "2019-12-13T20:50:53Z")
By the way, **Pantastic** , I’m driving from DC to Philadelphia tomorrow for the Army-Navy game. That’s about 120 miles each way, and I’m going up in the morning and back in the evening. My car’s range is about 260 miles in good weather, and tomorrow it will be chilly. Do you think I will have difficulty on this trip? What sorts of inconveniences am I risking here? I will report back on Sunday, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1194 "2019-12-13T21:10:53Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If you refrain from making insults, I will be happy to refrain from pointing it out. You can either report these perceived insults, or stop the accusations. Any further accusation on your part will be considered harassment. Take it to the pit if you want - but not here. This is the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1195 "2019-12-13T21:31:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Nice to meet you. > > And I have no interest in selling you an EV. > > But I do not comprehend your point. IF (a big if for you I get) an EV was a superior choice for the vast majority of your driving (you have easy access to charging most days, and most days are comfortably within the range of the EV) and the car was to be a second car _in addition to_ the ICE one you have now that meets and would continue to meet your weekend trips needs, then why would you feel that the EV was crossed off the list? You have (or your household has) the other car on those weekends to use as you use it now. > > Now as a _replacement_ vehicle for your ICE one it would be a _horrible_ choice, that I completely agree with. > > People who take long distance road trips frequently would be best off with _a_ vehicle in the household that is able to drive on gas. No question. They do not need two vehicles so capable. And I am unconvinced that the number of people who take frequent (even twice a year) long distance road trips is a very high percentage. Non-zero, I get that. (Hi Spiderman and friends! Loved the cartoon!) I currently have one car. I don’t do a lot of distance on it during the week; therefore, the fuel savings would be negligible. IOW, a majority of my mileage is in longer, weekend trips when I need to use the ICE anyway for range. Even if you gave me a free (non-Tesla, which I would never get) EV there are still costs; insurance, registration, annual inspection as well as I now need to juggle more cars than garage space. Also, while I do have a home, I kind of “live” out of my car, meaning that I keep certain things in my car & with only one car I don’t have to wonder is \_\_\_ in this car or that car? The benefits don’t outway the costs of having a second car. No question _if_ I get a second car it’s gonna be a convertible because they’re fun. If/when they finally come out with an EV convertible, & I like it’s styling, & it’s a reasonable price then I would consider an EV for a second car. > [@Pantastic](#): > > You guys really aren’t doing your cause any favors with the rampant hostility, shifting goalposts, dismissive attitudes, and misuse of statistics. Pot, meet Kettle. > [@begbert2](#): > > And I’m pretty confident that the only person who thinks that EVs take 50% longer to get places is you. Certainly not anybody who’s actually using them or knows how the cars work in practice. From [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC95WACQhCY&t=1m45s) video. An almost-2000 mile trip, which is excessively long by most anyone’s standards took about ≈25% of time in charging. Now a 2000 mile trip, at non-[Cannonball](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=886306) speeds requires some eating, & probably some sleeping so it’s possible to discount some of that 7:50 in charging time, which brings you below the 25% recharge percentage. IOW, 50% is at least 2 - 2½ times what it’ll really take for a long trip. Shorter trips are probably even less than that. However, I wouldn’t necessarily stop for a meal in a 6-hr ride even though that’s beyond the range of an EV so anything over the 4 mins it takes me to refill my ICE is wasted time & is pushing the desirability of that as a day trip, meaning if there’s not a recharger at the previously stated, most desirable 5-10% remaining battery life I might need to make two stops, & at a slower charge rate since the battery isn’t so depleted. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1196 "2019-12-13T22:28:56Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > While the bed payload of the EF-150 will probably be similar to the regular F-150 I would expect the hauling numbers to double. The torque to weight ratios of electric drivetrains allows for much better towing if they are set up for it. Of course if you are using a 3/4 ton with 5th wheel hitch then you are right dropping down to a half ton truck won’t get it done. I wouldn’t expect the rated numbers to double; there’s a lot more to capacity than the engine (you can get the same drivetrain in the F150 and F250 with very different GCVW ratings). The ICE F-150 is a classic body-on-frame. I’m not sure what’s in store for the electric-F-150 (I deal with day-to-day, and it’s not day-to-day yet); it might try to squeeze the battery into the existing frame, or it might use the old GM “skateboard” idea that Rivian is using (FYI, it’s our solution, though, not Rivian’s or VW’s at the this point [we have EV partnerships with both]). If it uses the existing frame, then consider that GCVW is in many respects driven by the frame’s construction, thus a possibility of no increased payload. And of course with a new frame, there are all kinds of new dynamics to consider. Really, it’s too soon to tell. I would expect that marketing would NEVER let us release an electric F-150 with lower than current ratings, though. On the other hand, although I love the CX727, marketing gave it the “Mustang” label. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1197 "2019-12-14T02:12:00Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > From [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC95WACQhCY&t=1m45s) video. An almost-2000 mile trip, which is excessively long by most anyone’s standards took about ≈25% of time in charging. Now a 2000 mile trip, at non-[Cannonball](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=886306) speeds requires some eating, & probably some sleeping so it’s possible to discount some of that 7:50 in charging time, which brings you below the 25% recharge percentage. IOW, 50% is at least 2 - 2½ times what it’ll really take for a long trip. Shorter trips are probably even less than that. > However, I wouldn’t necessarily stop for a meal in a 6-hr ride even though that’s beyond the range of an EV so anything over the 4 mins it takes me to refill my ICE is wasted time & is pushing the desirability of that as a day trip, meaning if there’s not a recharger at the previously stated, most desirable 5-10% remaining battery life I might need to make two stops, & at a slower charge rate since the battery isn’t so depleted. Similar situation here. From our house to my wife’s family in Cleveland is almost exactly 560 miles. We leave in the morning, eat a sack lunch while driving, and stop once for gas and bodily needs. We’ve made this trip for 35+ years and have it pretty much down pat. The gas/rest stop takes at most 10 minutes. Unless an EV can assure a range of 280+ miles AND give us a charging station at the midway point, then we have to make multiple stops. Someone can correct me if I’m mistaken, but I believe the only EV with anything near 280 miles of range is a Tesla. I wish people would quit saying there are EV options for long-distance travel. In point of fact, there is a **TESLA** alternative for long-distance travel. One shoe does not fit all feet. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1198 "2019-12-14T02:16:25Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Similar situation here. From our house to my wife’s family in Cleveland is almost exactly 560 miles. How often do you do this trip? Are you also a one-car household? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1199 "2019-12-14T02:19:22Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Similar situation here. From our house to my wife’s family in Cleveland is almost exactly 560 miles. We leave in the morning, eat a sack lunch while driving, and stop once for gas and bodily needs. We’ve made this trip for 35+ years and have it pretty much down pat. How many times per year do you make this trip? > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I wish people would quit saying there are EV options for long-distance travel. In point of fact, there is a **TESLA** alternative for long-distance travel. One shoe does not fit all feet. That’s fair, but Tesla is [77% of the US EV market](https://insideevs.com/news/353715/tesla-77-bev-sales-us-may-2019/), so it’s a bit one and the same. Things are changing rapidly, of course. In a few years, competitive charging networks will be more robust. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1200 "2019-12-14T03:55:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How often do you do this trip? Are you also a one-car household? Yes, we are a one-car household, and we make the trip several times a year. The next time will be in January. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=61)