# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1281 "2019-12-20T00:22:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A better term would be that EVs accelerate better than an ICE. Even a BMW i3 with a pretty whimpy motor for an EV is faster to 30 mph than a BMW M3 sports sedan. Spending a few more seconds accelerating to 65 is worth WAY less to me than being able to cruise at 80 without trouble. And the car that is limited to 65 for a long trip to avoid killing it’s battery definitely qualifies as the slower car in my book. I’m not really sure that ‘accelerates faster, but has a much lower cruising speed’ is supposed to be a selling point, and certainly wouldn’t say that the vehicle that has to drive slower and takes longer to make the trip is ‘faster’. > [@](#): > > Your whole case of criticism of EVs is based on things we keep telling you that, for EV owners, are even more minor and infrequent than oil changes. My criticism of EVs is based on facts, like published numbers on ranges and supercharger locations. And those facts show that a lot of what EV proponents are saying is not true for people in general. When I see things like EV proponents posting a video of a guy who took a trip with 20 hours of driving and 8 hours of charging, and said basically ‘see? Charting isn’t inconvenient, because he ate while charging so it doesn’t count as adding to trip time’, I’m going to take what they say with a grain of salt. When I see EV proponents arguing that if you’re camping your car will be five minutes from your campsite and have a plug available, I’m going to realize that their definition of ‘camping’ is extremely narrow and convenient for EVs. When I see EV proponents arguing that the only routes that count as ‘major’ are ones with lots of conveniently placed chargers, I’m going to assume that their other definitions are similarly skewed. > [@](#): > > The actual, real life inconvenience of oil changes/annual maintenance gets hand-waved away because it is the inconvenience of several hours out of the year that everyone is familiar with; and yet, the even more minor inconvenience of waiting 10-15 more minutes for a charge during an infrequent road trip is blown out of proportion. 10-15 minutes is an example of why I don’t take EV proponent claims as indisputable fact. Published numbers show that 30-40 minutes just for getting a 80% (not even full) charge is more realistic, and news stories from Thanksgiving show that for travel over a busy holiday weekend, wait times of literal hours are what people actually experienced. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1282 "2019-12-20T00:26:00Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > It’s only false if you misrepresent what I said. **Ravenman** got it, so I know I wasn’t that unclear. You have successfully found some routes that are underserved by Superchargers. No one denies that, or has ever said that all routes are equally well-served. But if you are on a route served by Superchargers, then you’ll find they are no diversion. [/quote] Original statement: > [@](#): > > What are you talking about? Supercharger stations are almost always just a block or two from the highway exit, just like gas stations. They don’t take 30 minutes to get to if you’re sticking to major routes, and it would be pointless to go to one if they were. OK, so what you’re saying is that your definition of ‘major route’ is ‘one that has superchargers on it’. In other words, your statement was saying that if you’re on a route that has a supercharger, there’s a supercharger on the route, and that you don’t consider any route without a supercharger to be a major route. That makes the statement technically true but rather misleading. Most people’s definition of ‘major route’ is not ‘one that has a supercharger’ but something like ‘one that is used by a lot of people’ or maybe ‘a limited access, divided highway’. What what this amounts to is that by your definition, there is no major route I can take on the beach trip I do at least once a summer. No major route that connects to my parent’s house. Even a good number of interstate-using routes are not major routes! I don’t think this is a useful definition of ‘major route’ to use. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Nobody has ever claimed that Superchargers serve every highway, but major highways are well-served. So if you are on a non-major highway, arguing that you have to go out of your way to visit a Supercharger is literally no different than saying that Superchargers don’t really cover non-major highways – which nobody is disputing. And Ravenman makes this even clearer - explicitly defining ‘major highways’ as ‘highways that are well-served by superchargers’. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1283 "2019-12-20T00:35:47Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > According to his research (& I’m not fact checking him) he’s not saying there’s not a supercharger off _a given_ exit ramp; he’s saying there’s not a supercharger off any of the exit ramps in a given stretch. That means he either needs to go well off the exit ramp to get to a supercharger &/or fill up well before is needed because of the supercharger ‘desert’ along that interstate, which would probably mean two fillups to complete his trip. Right, I was assuming that ‘major routes’ was using a more usual definition of the term and that they weren’t defining ‘major routes’ as being ‘routes that have superchargers’. I also don’t limit ‘major routes’ to Insterstates, I would at least add freeways that are state or US highways to that. For a number of routes that I routinely take (some of which use interstates), getting to a supercharger requires a 20+ minute diversion or is simply not feasible. Going from Raleigh to Atlantic Beach, which is about the worst case that I regularly drive, the only supercharger along the route is in Smithfield, which is 120 miles from the destination (which is not a reasonable round trip for anything but the 300+ mile cars). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1284 "2019-12-20T00:50:22Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > OK, so what you’re saying is that your definition of ‘major route’ is ‘one that has superchargers on it’. In other words, your statement was saying that if you’re on a route that has a supercharger, there’s a supercharger on the route, and that you don’t consider any route without a supercharger to be a major route. You are almost there. What you are missing is that to have a productive conversation, **Ravenman** , I, and others should not need to caveat every single statement with “except in those areas where coverage is known to be spotty.” Because that’s something that’s been said elsewhere in this thread many times, and should be taken as background context. A Supercharger that’s 30 minutes out of your way is _not on your route_. It’s on _some other route_ that is covered, and is almost certainly just a few blocks from an exit on that other route. So why is your route not covered? Maybe it’s not “major”, for whatever that means. Maybe it is major, but there’s another route close by that serves almost the same drivers. Or maybe this is just one of those areas where Supercharger coverage isn’t as great as it should be. Some parts of the country have great coverage; others less so. There’s no state without at least a few routes covered, but some places are still missing. It happens. You named some highways earlier but without specific routes it was not clear to me if they were actually served or not. Note that a Supercharger every 100 miles is well-served, because all Teslas can go over twice that far on a charge. Sure, if you were right smack-dab between two of them, you’d be 50 miles from the nearest charger, but you’d never let it get to that point. You just stop every 200 miles or so and charge up. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1285 "2019-12-20T01:07:46Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > … And those facts show that a lot of what EV proponents are saying is not true for people in general. … “Facts”, in this case about what is and is not “true for people in general”, not in evidence. Not true for you are your needs, no debate. Not true fro everyone, definitely. But that “people in general” claim? Now that is made up shit right there. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1286 "2019-12-20T01:10:35Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Going from Raleigh to Atlantic Beach, which is about the worst case that I regularly drive, the only supercharger along the route is in Smithfield, which is 120 miles from the destination (which is not a reasonable round trip for anything but the 300+ mile cars). Thank you for the specific route. However, I’m not sure where you are getting Smithfield as the nearest Supercharger. From Raleigh to Atlantic Beach is only 151 miles, so any Tesla can do that no problem. But it’s true that the route back is not as nice: you would need to stop at Wallace, which brings the total route to 178 miles. Though it’s not as bad as the miles indicate, since most of the route back is on I-40, which is presumably faster than Hwy 70. So this does add 15 minutes to your driving time, plus charging. There are a few Destination Chargers near Atlantic Beach, though presumably they require staying at the hotels they serve. I’d agree that this isn’t the greatest route for a Tesla, but it’s not disastrous, and it doesn’t add hours to the drive as you seemingly imply. There’s certainly no extra 120 or 240 miles involved. Of course, with a top-end Model S, you could just do it without charging at all. Maybe with the LR Model 3 too, if you took it easy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1287 "2019-12-20T02:56:58Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > OK, so what you’re saying is that your definition of ‘major route’ is ‘one that has superchargers on it’.'. Would this tiresome bitching about the definition of “major route” be extinguished if we just used the term “interstate freeway” instead? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1288 "2019-12-20T03:36:15Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Note that a Supercharger every 100 miles is well-served, because all Teslas can go over twice that far on a charge. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Of course, with a top-end Model S, you could just do it without charging at all. Maybe with the LR Model 3 too, if you took it easy. Once again, it seems that “electric vehicle” has been defined to mean “Tesla.” The Nissan Leaf (which for me would be a far better all-around vehicle choice than a Tesla sedan or truck) brags about its new 226-mile range. That won’t even get me from St. Louis to Kansas City. Assuming the “supercharger” Nissan says is located in Columbia is the most powerful, it will take me 45 minutes to get to an 80% charge. That’s a lot to add on to a trip that normally takes about four hours. I also see that the charger is only available during the Nissan dealer’s business hours, and not at all on Sunday. That means if I want to take a weekend trip to KC and back, it will not just take longer, but I’ll need to find some other charger along the way, which probably will take even longer to recharge. And the St. Louis-Kansas City route is I-70, which fits anyone’s definition of a “major route.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1289 "2019-12-20T04:32:10Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Once again, it seems that “electric vehicle” has been defined to mean “Tesla.” **Pantastic** was talking specifically about Superchargers, which are Tesla only, so the conversation is about them. The unfortunate reality is that Tesla is the only maker to have invested in a widespread, high speed charging network. If charging on the road is important, then Tesla really is the only choice right now. That’s part of why 77% of US EV sales are Tesla. Others (Ford, VW) are just starting to invest, mainly through Electrify America. But they are still quite far from something that matches the Supercharger network. Things might be different in a few years; we’ll see. For a second car, or for people that just don’t travel outside a 100 mile radius, the charging network is irrelevant. A Leaf or a Bolt is just fine for those people. It’s not as uncommon as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1290 "2019-12-20T14:08:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Would this tiresome bitching about the definition of “major route” be extinguished if we just used the term “interstate freeway” instead? In Pantastic’s defense, not every place people want to go in the far west is served by an interstate highway. My route to Burning Man, for example, is 90% US-93/-95 and 10% NV-447. About three years ago when I got into a conversation with a fellow Burner and Tesla owner in Arizona, we looked at the map and the route is well served by superchargers except, oddly enough, Fernley which is right on I-80. To make it comfortably up to BM and back on 447 through the boonies, thence to Fallon, he’d have to divert thirty miles west to Reno and charge there. Oddly enough, I do that in my Suburban anyway because Reno is a better place for stocking up than Fernley and in any event, he’d never take is Model S onto the playa anyway – the dust would do none of the systems in the auto any favors. US-50, the other major east-west route in Nevada has no superchargers at all. Therefore, like Pantastic, it’ll be a long time before anybody in Ely buys an EV, all 3,900 of them. Me? I’m waiting for some toy-boy to get restless about his Model 3 and sell it for a third of the sticker price. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1291 "2019-12-20T16:10:26Z")
You may have to wait a while. Teslas so far have [held value](https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/12/tesla-model-s-and-x-vehicles-boast-superior-resale.aspx) in the resale market very very well, and [Kelly Blue Book](https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-electric-vehicle/) expects the 3 to follow that pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1292 "2019-12-20T16:15:41Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > In Pantastic’s defense, not every place people want to go in the far west is served by an interstate highway. That’s not a defense of him. Literally nobody is saying that Superchargers are everywhere. We have been saying that where there are Superchargers, which is along interstates/major freeways/insert stupid quibbling here, the Superchargers are very close to off ramps. He keeps twisting that simple statement into an assertion that Superchargers are within a minute or two of everywhere, and then providing evidence that the argument nobody is making is wrong. No shit, Sherlock. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1293 "2019-12-22T01:27:48Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Estimates for the cost of charging an EV for 50 miles on wall current are around $6-7 A full charge from ) battery on my 2018 Chevrolet volt (53 miles) costs about $2 We can pull detailed reports on our charging from an app tied to the car. at 12 amp 110v charging I usually see about 5-6 miles on the dash per hour. Even superchargers dont charge those kinds of rates. Some of the commercial public chargers do charge those kinds of rates, but at least here…nobody uses them. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1294 "2019-12-22T01:30:09Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Spending a few more seconds accelerating to 65 is worth WAY less to me than being able to cruise at 80 without trouble. And the car that is limited to 65 for a long trip to avoid killing it’s battery definitely qualifies as the slower car in my book. I’m not really sure that ‘accelerates faster, but has a much lower cruising speed’ is supposed to be a selling point, and certainly wouldn’t say that the vehicle that has to drive slower and takes longer to make the trip is 'faster. Hell, by that metric, a top-fuel dragster probably classifies as the _slowest_ car ever made. I mean, just think of how far you’d have to go out of your way to find a gas station along I-80 with nitromethane. And complete engine rebuilds every few miles? My bicycle is faster. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1295 "2019-12-22T01:47:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Pantastic** > Estimates for the cost of charging an EV for 50 miles on wall current are around $6-7 > [@drachillix](#): > > A full charge from ) battery on my 2018 Chevrolet volt (53 miles) costs about $2 We can pull detailed reports on our charging from an app tied to the car. at 12 amp 110v charging I usually see about 5-6 miles on the dash per hour. > > Even superchargers dont charge those kinds of rates. > > Some of the commercial public chargers do charge those kinds of rates, but at least here…nobody uses them. I’d say that \*\*Pantastic’s \*\* uncited estimate is bit off. Back in the real world, i am getting 7.5 km/kWh in my LEAF (in the winter - in summer it is more like 8.5) With local electricity rates at .15cents/kWh (no deal for charging at night where I am), this means that a 50 mile (80 km) trip would cost me $1.60 CDN ($1.22 USD) This really is an excellent example of what I was bitching about in my OP. Someone who should not ever consider an EV pops in to tell everybody that it will cost them about FIVE TIMES more than it actually does to charge their EV at home. With no citation, or evidence. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1296 "2019-12-22T03:00:36Z")
Adding to the data, it costs me $1.11 for a 30-mile charge here (not an estimate) of my wall current in the garage. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1297 "2019-12-22T04:23:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Nobody has ever claimed that Superchargers serve every highway, but major highways are well-served. So if you are on a non-major highway, arguing that you have to go out of your way to visit a Supercharger is literally no different than saying that Superchargers don’t really cover non-major highways – which nobody is disputing. > > As **Dr. S** has said clearly, where there is a Supercharger, it is virtually always very convenient to an exit. **Pantastic** keeps missing the point and talking about places where Superchargers are not currently servicing. I’d consider an interstate a major highway; especially I-40 which is one of the few interstates that pretty much crosses this country, ocean to ocean, E-W; starting in Raleigh, \< 200 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1298 "2019-12-22T04:38:05Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > I’d consider an interstate a major highway; especially I-40 which is one of the few interstates that pretty much crosses this country, ocean to ocean, E-W; starting in Raleigh, \< 200 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. Still missing the point completely. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1299 "2019-12-22T04:51:44Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > I’d consider an interstate a major highway; especially I-40 which is one of the few interstates that pretty much crosses this country, ocean to ocean, E-W; starting in Raleigh, \< 200 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. What **Ravenman** said. However: where are you finding gaps in Superchargers along I-40? Going East to West, I see them in Wilmington (right on the coast), Wallace, Millbrook (Raleigh), Cary, Burlington, Greensboro, Hickory, Asheville, Knoxville, Cookeville, and… I’m getting bored. It seems to be a well-served route. The longest gap I found was 101 miles. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1300 "2019-12-22T06:18:40Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > I’d consider an interstate a major highway; especially I-40 which is one of the few interstates that pretty much crosses this country, ocean to ocean, E-W; starting in Raleigh, \< 200 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. I’ll have to keep that in mind for when I drive from Raleigh to Barstow. Which will be never. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=66)