# Electric Vehicle critics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254 "2019-10-24T20:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1381 "2020-01-05T19:00:53Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > It’s a popular one. In the US in 2019 Tesla sold as many Model 3s as GM sold Cadillacs.\*. That’s fine but that doesn’t make the car comparable. It just makes it popular. Tesla cars have a terrible reputation for repair delays. Tesla owners were sold a bill of goods that Musk currently cannot support. They’re fucked if something breaks or the car is in an accident. When you talk of information this is pretty damn important to people who rely on their car for transportation. Not so much for people who buy it as an addition to their stable of cars. I like about half of the Model 3 as cars go. It’s nice looking and performs well enough. I don’t like Tesla (at this time) because Musk has operated off the pocketbooks of his customers. For those who bought a Tesla I truly hope they get to enjoy it. It’s a geek’s paradise of quirky fun. But I don’t have unlimited sympathy for a Tesla owner who waited a year for their car and then had to wait months for it to be repaired. I have no desire to be a Tesla Beta tester. I’ve been watching EV’s long before Musk fell to Earth and I’m grateful his vision has pushed them back into prominence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1382 "2020-01-05T19:11:34Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > EV’s don’t need near amount the of routine service that an ICE does. They can also get updates over the air so there’s much less need to go to a dealer service department. Accepting this on face value for the sake of argument, shouldn’t the wait time for repair be less? If it’s true and the wait times are more that means there are not enough places available to do the repair and/or parts are not available. Agree? Disagree? needs more cow bells? And as a side note, I think the over the air updates is brilliant. It will become the standard for other companies to meet. However, it can’t fix faulty parts, just bad programming and the occasional electronic cookie. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1383 "2020-01-05T20:04:51Z")
You have concluded that repair time for EVs is very long. Doubtless because you’ve seen a few horror stories about a customer who had a long wait. You’ve also surely seen an article than at EV caught on fire. In reality, its pretty clear that EVs are at least no more prone to, and probably much less prone to, vehicle fires, per NHTSA and other sources. So do you have some sort of cite saying that EV repairs take so much longer? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1384 "2020-01-05T21:06:20Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Again the false narrative of EVs being more expensive. The Model 3, which is by far the best selling EV in the US, is very similarly priced to other entry level luxury cars. The Model 3 Performance is considerably cheaper than anything else with similar levels of performance. I would not call the Model 3 a “luxury car.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1385 "2020-01-05T21:19:59Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I would not call the Model 3 a “luxury car.” Yeah, it’s weird. It’s got aspects that clearly bring it into comparison with luxury cars, like the sportiness and the fun of driving something so smooth and powerful. But then, some aspects are clearly in line with like a Honda Civic: some of the interior facets just seem cheap. In many ways, it’s just in a category of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1386 "2020-01-05T22:25:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s fine but that doesn’t make the car comparable. It just makes it popular. Tesla cars have a terrible reputation for repair delays. > > Tesla owners were sold a bill of goods that Musk currently cannot support. They’re fucked if something breaks or the car is in an accident. Lots of new car dealers don’t do body (collision) repairs & there are a lot of independent places that do. IOW, one doesn’t need to go back to where they bought their car to have it repaired after an accident & many times one has to go somewhere else. Is there something inherent to EVs that make them harder to repair after an accident? Or is Tesla not sharing technical bulletins with independent repair shops & preventing them from doing work? Or are they just not producing enough spare quarter panels & hoods, etc. to replace crumpled ones? In the latter two scenarios, it’s a specific company & not EVs, in general, that are the problem. It’s unclear when you say repairs if you mean mechanical (which might be warranty work) or body work after a collision. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1387 "2020-01-05T22:38:49Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I would not call the Model 3 a “luxury car.” Everything I see classifies it as “entry level luxury” or “small and midsize luxury.” I don’t know if those are industry standard categories (whoever the “industry” is, and I guess you’re in the auto industry, so maybe your opinion should be the rule :)?) Maybe it’s auto journalists who came up with these categories. My guess is that it’s more like, “let’s lump together a bunch of cars in the $40-60k price range.” I think just like buying any cars, you can do feature by feature comparisons and different people will come to different conclusions. Obviously some people prefer the Audi A4 over the BMW 3, Lexus ES, or Mercedes C. Unfortunately for GM, not many people prefer the CTS or CT6 over those other options. Many times in these discussions it can be a race to the bottom (which is a used Yaris) as people dismiss one feature or another as pointless, only for rich jerks, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1388 "2020-01-05T22:55:56Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Lots of new car dealers don’t do body (collision) repairs & there are a lot of independent places that do. IOW, one doesn’t need to go back to where they bought their car to have it repaired after an accident & many times one has to go somewhere else. > Is there something inherent to EVs that make them harder to repair after an accident? Or is Tesla not sharing technical bulletins with independent repair shops & preventing them from doing work? Or are they just not producing enough spare quarter panels & hoods, etc. to replace crumpled ones? In the latter two scenarios, it’s a specific company & not EVs, in general, that are the problem. Teslas can be repaired at independent body shops. Just like with any manufacturer, there is training and certification, so only some shops will be able to do body repair on Teslas. When my Tesla’s rear windshield was broken I had it repaired at Safelite, the same as the windshield on my VW. Safelite locally stocks (or can quickly get) lots of common windshields, but they had to order one for me, and it took about a week to arrive. In this world of next day Amazon Prime that seems long, but for getting a pallet of glass from California, it seems about right. Parts availability is getting much better, but it can still be a problem. Some of it is the shipping thing, because there is no nearby warehouse full of Tesla parts, like there are for other major brands. Another issue is that parts are being built into cars as quickly as the parts can be made. I think that problem is getting much, much better as production has stabilized. Wait times for parts is somewhat offset by the ease of many repairs. For example, replacing a drive motor or battery pack is a four hour job. Tesla also has mobile rangers, so many repairs can be done onsite, which also saves time for the end user. I got my winter tires put on at the local Discount Tire, so no different than any other car. There are still very few (maybe a handful or less nationwide) independent shops that do non-body Tesla repair. As more cars come off warranty, hopefully that will change. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1389 "2020-01-05T23:02:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You have concluded that repair time for EVs is very long. Doubtless because you’ve seen a few horror stories about a customer who had a long wait. No, I directed my remakes to Tesla. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1390 "2020-01-06T00:21:41Z")
No substantive answer then. But please, keep spreading your unsourced opinions like they are facts. That Tesla buyers have to wait a year for a car is a particularly good one, too. You should up your scare story to two years, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1391 "2020-01-06T01:22:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No substantive answer then. > > But please, keep spreading your unsourced opinions like they are facts. That Tesla buyers have to wait a year for a car is a particularly good one, too. You should up your scare story to two years, maybe. It’s a fact that that repair centers are few and far between in my state. It’s not an opinion and it’s well known. And please don’t act like Musk didn’t over-promise on delivery times for the model 3. He put out the expensive versions first to keep his funding alive thus screwing over the people who wanted a $35K version. They had to wait longer while the more expensive models ate up the federal rebate. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1392 "2020-01-06T02:36:54Z")
If we take it as a given that there are fewer maintenance centers for EV’s… We need to ask: Are the same number of centers actually needed? The answer may be “no”, and further, this may be why conventional dealers are not all that incentivized to sell [electric cars that require less maintenance](https://reneweconomy.com.au/car-dealers-dont-want-sell-electric-vehicles-35648/) > [@](#): > > The team also interviewed 30 different industry experts, who corroborated the study’s findings, describing EVs as both harder to sell and less incentivised, in that they were expected to produce lower profits for the dealerships. > > That’s because electric vehicles – with significantly fewer moving parts – require **far less servicing** than fossil fuelled ICE cars. > > “While an added benefit of EV technology for the user is a substantial reduction in routine maintenance and repairs, this also represents a further disincentive for the dealer to promote EV technology because they **rely heavily on income from repairs and maintenance as part of their revenue model** ,” the report says. So basically, you seem to be saying that EV’s are not a good choice, because there are not as many places for you to spend money on maintenance that you won’t need. If you’re talking accident repairs, I think it’s established that you don’t have to take your Tesla (or any EV) to a dealer for accident repairs. Same as you don’t have to take your Ford F150 to a ford dealer if you get in a scrape. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1393 "2020-01-06T02:45:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He put out the expensive versions first to keep his funding alive thus screwing over the people who wanted a $35K version. They had to wait longer while the more expensive models ate up the federal rebate. You appear to not even know if the $35k car is available, now you’re complaining about tax rebates? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1394 "2020-01-06T03:50:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You appear to not even know if the $35k car is available, now you’re complaining about tax rebates? I’m fully aware they’re available. And you know that I’m aware. And you’re aware of the federal rebate tied to production numbers as well as the [deliberate delay](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/26/18282810/tesla-model-3-standard-range-35000-delays) in releasing the base-line Model 3. The delay in putting out the base model has been discussed on this board before. Musk needed the down payments and higher revenue cars to keep the company going. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1395 "2020-01-06T03:52:26Z")
And why is that a problem? As has been said, we’re still in the early adopter phase for EVs. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1396 "2020-01-06T04:00:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The model 3 is supposed to start at 35 but I don’t think anyone has purchased one for that. > [@Magiver](#): > > I’m fully aware they’re available. And you know that I’m aware. Didn’t sound like you were aware when you wrote that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1397 "2020-01-06T04:07:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So basically, you seem to be saying that EV’s are not a good choice, because there are not as many places for you to spend money on maintenance that you won’t need. No, I’m saying TESLA doesn’t have enough service centers to support their product. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If you’re talking accident repairs, I think it’s established that you don’t have to take your Tesla (or any EV) to a dealer for accident repairs. Same as you don’t have to take your Ford F150 to a ford dealer if you get in a scrape. And yet TESLA owners are experiencing large delays in accident repairs. Again, they don’t have enough repair shops certified to work on their cars. As the leader in EV sales Tesla represents a sizeable portion of the cars purchased and as such people need to know the pitfalls of purchasing their products. Plunking down $50-$80K on a car is a serious chunk of money and hand waving away issues with Tesla harms the industry as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1398 "2020-01-06T04:47:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Didn’t sound like you were aware when you wrote that. If i remember correctly the $35k doesn’t cover delivery. I believe we discussed this years ago but I’m not going to research it. Regardless, Tesla deliberately held back the cheaper model because the company was underfunded and needed the money from the more expensive version. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1399 "2020-01-06T04:56:14Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Or are they just not producing enough spare quarter panels & hoods, etc. to replace crumpled ones? In the latter two scenarios, it’s a specific company & not EVs, in general, that are the problem. My C1 is certainly not electric and when some dude didn’t see me in a roundabout and tried to exit through me, leading to an accordioned front and to needing a new bumper (if I hadn’t managed to dodge partially it would have been worse), the car spent 6 weeks in the shop for lack of that part. Just in time doesn’t allow for spares. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254/1400 "2020-01-06T10:42:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > **If i remember correctly the $35k doesn’t cover delivery.** I believe we discussed this years ago but I’m not going to research it. > > Regardless, Tesla deliberately held back the cheaper model because the company was underfunded and needed the money from the more expensive version. How is that different than any other brand? [Destination charge.](https://www.bankrate.com/glossary/d/destination-charge/) > [@](#): > > A destination charge, also called a delivery fee, freight fee or transportation fee, is the fee that an auto manufacturer charges the customer to deliver the vehicle from the factory to the dealership. \*\*The dealer does not include this in the ticket price. > \*\* > > Unlike with the sale price of a vehicle, a buyer can’t negotiate the destination charge and must pay it even if he picks up the vehicle directly from the manufacturer at the factory instead of at the dealership. In most cases, the destination fee is a flat fee that the manufacturer arrives at by calculating the average cost for shipping a vehicle, based on both the farthest and closest dealership for the manufacturing plant. Destination charges typically range from $400 to $800. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electric-vehicle-critics/842254.md?page=71)