You’re saying that autonomous cars will be generally available in 5-10 years?
Yeah, not buying that at all.
There’s another thread on the viability of autonomous or self-driving cars, so can we please leave that out of the discussion here?
Thinking of an EV as a “replacement” for an ICE car is the like thinking of a laptop as a replacement for a desktop. I remember a time when there was significant cost / performance / longevity differences between the two. That has now largely disappeared, and in most instances it simply comes down to preference between the two for most who are not on the fringes or have unusual needs.
Different needs, different usage patterns and different cost / benefit structures.
It doesn’t need to be so complicated - for a significant number of people - an EV will “work” with minor attitude adjustments, for others, they won’t.
The area of overlap in usage and “fit” is going to get bigger as technology gets better though.
Do you know how metering works?
I also don’t have an assigned spot.
And obviously I’m not in CA but it’s still useful to see how other places do it.
I actually don’t. But I think this is the relevant law for time of use meters installed in common areas or where there are HOAs.
In the Bay Area now, it’s a bit of an exaggeration, but Teslas and Bolts are like camry’s or honda accords. They are everywhere. The Model 3 is pretty much the best commuter car available - cheap energy, easy driving, high performance, latest tech with autopilot making traffic no problem, chargers everywhere, HOV lane access, etc.
If you’re in the bay area and you are buying a car that is used for commuting, if you aren’t buying a Model 3 or Bolt, you’ve made a mistake.
Going by year, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration at all. I’m almost certain there are more 2019 Model 3s than 2019 Camrys around here. It’s ridiculous sitting at a stop light in a cluster of four Model 3s, with a few more on the other side, and all of them 2018-2019.
What I made up? You posted what sounded like a very straightforward scenario: a 50-mile commute followed by a 120-mile weekend trip to your friend. You did not mention a 20-mile diversion or a second commute.
Look, it doesn’t matter at this point. The 235 mile scenario is the one you had in mind. I think you were less than cogent in describing the trip but I really don’t care at this point.
Well, I guess these are the types of people that are always 10 minutes late to shit. I know a few of them. But most people I know actually plan things a bit.
I’ll let the others decide which of us has made more exaggerations. But let me quote you again:
First, for some reason you’re still talking about this $133k–scratch–$80k car, when the cars everyone is suggesting here are more like $30-40k. Second, the $80k car has a whopping 373 mile range, which means you could forget to plug in for a *week *and still commute every day and go out a few nights. Third, there’s no “routinely” adding an hour to the situation you mentioned, which was already a combination of a rare event (forgetting to plug in) and a mildly common event (weekly at most). You don’t need to plan your life around the car and in fact just about every aspect of the car requires less thought than your current vehicle. The 373 miles would make the trip to your parents, too, with a couple of commutes and diversions thrown in as well. The $40k car is slightly more limited at around 250 miles, but it still covers your claimed trips without extra waiting.
Nevertheless, I certainly don’t recommend an EV of any kind for you, given your claimed forgetfulness. It is in fact necessary to plug in EVs from time to time.
I think another key reason some people think EVs are terrible is that EV-owning people have the audacity to say something when misinformation is presented by people who have a very, very tenuous grasp on the subject.
I remember a few years ago reading an article that claimed that the “real” range of a Nissan Leaf was only 20 miles in the “real world.” That’s because while the range of the car at the time was like 85 miles, you had to deduct:
- 17 miles because you can only charge it to 80%;
- 15 miles because the battery will degrade in 5-10 years;
- 12 miles because sometimes its cold outside; and
- Divide by two because you have to drive back from your destination.
Ergo, the Leaf could only travel 20 miles.
And then Leaf owners got sooooooo meeeeean and left comments on the article that hurt the author’s feelings because they didn’t agree 100%. What bad, bad people!
And then look at all of us meanies in this thread, daring to disagree that an EV costing less than $80,000 cannot handle a 50 mile commute. We are so bad bad bad!
I suppose that same someone has to do “a lot of planning” around remembering to set their alarm so that they can go into work in the morning, too. But seriously, how often do you expect all of those scenarios to line up, in a given year?
Again, your scenario is an (1) above average commute, (2) forgetting to plug in at night, (3) 20 miles of errands, (4) a far-off driving distance to visit a friend (5) another above average commute (6) with no convenient fast chargers during any of this 200+ miles of driving, or charging ability at work, or charging ability near friend’s house.
When pointed out that several current EVs can, in fact handle this scenario just fine, you’ve thrown in (7) 80% battery degradation or inclement weather to justify your “routine” example.
Knock any one of these links out of the chain, and the EV would have been fine. And I get it, this stuff happens occasionally, and EVs are not as well equipped to deal with it in many parts of the country right now. But this is not a “routine” example for most of the population. And even when it does happen, it would likely be limited to just being an hour late for work to charge the car on the L2 you have installed at home, or divert to a fast charger. About the same consequences as “forgetting to set your alarm to wake up in the morning”.
My current workplace has no gas stations for ~10 miles, and the nearest one is a few miles opposite my commute direction. On more than one location, I’ve had to visit that exact inconvenient gas station on my way home, because I’ve been on empty, and had to do some unexpected driving for work, and didn’t want to risk running out on my way to the convenient station.
I’ve had more than a few hair-raising drives with the E light on, because I thought I probably could make it to the convenient station. And a few where I’ve had to bypass the convenient station in the morning because I’m already running late for work. And a few where I’ve been 5-10 minutes late to a meeting because I absolutely had to stop for gas in the morning, because i didn’t think I’d be able to make it all the way to work, and then the 10 miles back.
I’ve had absolutely none of this stress since buying an EV, since the “convenient” station is now located in my garage, and it takes 5 seconds of effort to “fill up”. But i’m just one anecdote here, and my situation isn’t everyone’s.
My wife has taken our LEAF to my parent’s cabin. I’m going to meet her there this weekend. I’ve been driving our gas car around,which is OK since it needed a run (has sat for over a month), and we’re going to sell it soon anyway…
Got home last night and noticed the gas gauge was very low. Shit. Had no time to go back out and find a gas station that was open, as I had committed to tasks at home, like cooking dinner for son, helping with homework etc. So now I have to do some planning.
Do I head off early this morning and find an open gas station? Or find someone to be with my son while I head out at night and fill up? <call… can’t find anyone at short notice> Self serve means I will probably get smelly gas shit on my hands (those pumps handles often leave my hands smelly for some reason). Better take some wet wipes. Where are they? <search house>. I should probably check the oil when I’m there. Better set the alarm to leave extra early.
I really wish I could have been driving the LEAF. Then I just would have plugged in when I got home (5 seconds) and never given it another thought. No planning required. Sweet!
I’m looking at a map right now of the EV charging stations near my home. Since I live pretty near a couple of Interstate highways, I seem to have a better selection than most people in this area. Here’s what I see:
- One 50 Kw port with CHAdeMO and CCS combo connectors
- Tesla only, two ports, 8 Kw max, for hotel guests only
- One Level 2 J1772 port. It’s at a car dealership, no info about operating hours or other restrictions
- One 50 Kw port with CHAdeMO
- Two Level 2 J1772 ports, 6.6 Kw max
Would someone like to interpret these results for me? How good is a 6.6 Kw or an 8Kw charger in terms of someone being able to get a fast charge and get back on the road? Which models use CHAdeMO, which use J1172, and are there adapters for each other? Should Tesla owners feel cheated because there’s no Supercharger, and the only Tesla charger available is for guests of a second-rate hotel that no one who drives a $30,000 car would want to stay in?
Not my case certainly. If I want to fill my car up after 10 PM I would have to drive about 30 miles.
The J1772 chargers are not good enough for fast/trip charging, but are perfectly fine for long term charging: overnight or during the work day. They are good for quick charging for somebody with a plug-in hybrid that has a tiny battery. For example, a 40 minute charge over lunch at the parking garage in the mall might be enough to get your plug-in hybrid back home without having to use any gas. Sure, the same amount of power is added to an EV, but somebody with 200 miles of range, might not care about adding 12 miles over lunch. Most EVs, including Teslas, can charge from a J1772 level 2 charger. Teslas use an adapter, and it is the native connector for others.
The CHAdeMO and CCS connectors are variations on J1772 which allow DC fast charging. 50kW can put a lot of power in a car quickly. It is standard or an option on many non-Tesla EVs. Tesla sells an adapter to allow CHAdeMO charging.
The 8kW Tesla connectors are probably Tesla wall connectors installed at the hotel for guests to charge with overnight. 8kW is not fast charging, and is about the best you’ll do on home charging.
These are charge rates for my car, other cars which are less efficient will have other rates:
6.6kW Level 2, about 22 miles of range added per hour of charging. That is going to be 220V by 24 amps (30 amp outlet) or 200V by 26 amps (commercial power).
8kW Level 2, about 30 mph. This is probably a 220V by 32 amp residential, or 200V by 36 amp commercial.
50kW Level 3, about 200 mph.
150kW Tesla supercharger, about 600 mph.
While “proximity to EV charging stations near my home” is definitely important for people without any home/work charging available, and may help in the rare “i forgot to charge last night and I have to leave for a big trip” scenario, you may very likely never need to use the charging stations anywhere near your house if you have home charging available.
Again, you’re probably starting out the day with 200-300 miles in the tank, and your return trip is going to take you right back home where your charger is. There is almost zero point in stopping anywhere else near your house to charge, unless it’s free electricity and you were going to park there anyway for another reason.
You should probably be more concerned about where the fast EV charging stations are along your common routes 50-100 miles away, the L2 charging availability at hotels in cities that you typically travel to, and near the out-of-the-way places you stay at often (i.e, your parent’s house in rural Appalachia)
Electric Vehicles are to Internal Combustion Engined vehicles like LEDs are to Incandescent lights. They offer such enormous advantages that it’s a question of when, not if, we switch. For many years the options were a crappy power plant(ICE) which was AT BEST 50% efficient, and polluted the air, AND required things like multi-speed transmissions, coolant, lubricant, exhaust gas filters, etc. to offset their negatives, wrapped in a nice car, comfortable, sporty, reliable. OR a wonderful power plant(Electric Motor) with a kind of crappy car, cheaply built, degrading batteries, limited availability, poor parts availability/serviceability. Finally the electric cars are changing that and just like the light bulb, the tide is turning. And we’ll be better off for it, even if some people want to hang onto their “heat globes” but most of us will switch over because the advantages are just enormous.
You’re still thinking in terms of gas cars. You don’t need to go to a public charger in a typical day in the life of a plug in driver. Public chargers SHOULD be in out of the way places, the kind of places where you don’t live or work. The kind of places where you DON’T have easy access to a plug. 99% of your charging will be at home, in your garage. 0.9% will be at a friend/family member’s place. 0.09% will be at stores/malls. About 0.01% will be at public chargers unless you specifically choose to go to them. You will almost never NEED to. Sure this makes them most effective/useful for people who have garages at the moment, but that’s a pretty big market segment and likely to be enough to bootstrap the US into a predominantly electric vehicle future.
Enjoy,
Steven
This is a good analogy.
Also, early LEDs that were as good as 60w incandescents were $50 a bulb. Like the model S and X
The model 3 at 40-50k is like those $10 a bulb LEDs. Worth it for commonly used bulbs - a 60w bulb left on all the time eats $63 of power per year.
Similarly, BMWs and other similar cars to the M3 are expensive to maintain and will burn through tens of thousands of dollars in fuel over their lifetime.
But at $10 a bulb it’s still not a no brainer for everyone. And LED bulbs fail in places like ovens, just like EVs fail in the Arctic. (The actual Arctic not Vermont)
Similarly LED bulbs sometimes have significant failures - not from the diodes wearing out, but from the power supply. And early EVs often have door handle failures and other basic fails.
I used those charging points as a reference because I’m familiar with where they are and what they look like (they all look pretty much the same to me,) AND because, as I said, they’re all easily accessible from Interstate highways, so they might be exactly where a long-distance driver is looking.
But echoreply is telling me that out of four chargers (the fifth is restricted to hotel guests) two of them are inadequate to give a proper boost to someone on a long-distance drive.
Knowing now that I would need a Level 3 charger (or the Tesla equivalent) I searched for all Level 3 charging stations in St. Louis City and St. Louis County Missouri. That’s a population total of about 1.3 million in 550 sq. mile area.
I found 12 Level 3 chargers and only one Tesla supercharger. (I think there’s actually another Tesla Supercharger, but it isn’t marked on the map as such.)
I then took a closer look at the trip from St. Louis to Chicago that I mentioned in an earlier post. There are Tesla Superchargers marked in both Springfield and Bloomington, but I can’t find a Level 3 non-Tesla charger in either city.
All I can conclude from this is either a) I don’t know how to find a Level 3 charger or b) there’s a high inconvenience factor in using an electric vehicle in my part of the Midwest.
Given the the fundamental interconnectedness of all things, particularly the electrical grid, I’m not sure how they make sure only the green electron holes reach your house. I guess if we can arbitrarily pick and choose, I choose all of the green ones at my house, too, except I don’t have to pay for them.
This is a bad argument and you should feel bad. If you bank in the same bank as some drug dealers and terrorists, when you go to withdraw some of your hard earned money, the actual paper bills might be the ones deposited by the criminals. Doesn’t change the fact that you added clean money and removed money equal to or less than what you added.
Electric grids absolutely are subject to conservation laws. Really the way to view them is the same, except that the laws of physics mean the grid leaks, so the total withdrawals are always less than the deposits.
With that said, you aren’t wrong in one respect - if a few people in your area pay extra for green power, it doesn’t make any real difference. What makes a difference is either subsidizing green power, taxing dirty power, or technological advances making green power cheaper than dirty power. People doing things not in their own best interests (paying more for electricity just so they feel better) isn’t a winner.
Not all EVs, just non-Tesla. Even though there are only two Superchargers on the way to Chicago, that’s totally fine–even with the shorter-range Teslas, you need at most a 20 minute top-off in Bloomington.
I don’t see any CHAdeMO or CCS stations on the St. Louis to Chicago route. They definitely need to improve that. Hopefully, the billions that Volkswagen will spend on charging infrastructure will fix that.
As YamatoTwinkie says, assuming you have a home charger, you don’t have to worry at all about chargers close to home. Not once have I gone to a Supercharger <100 miles from home. There’s just no point since I can easily drive in that radius given the basic range I have.