I guess these things don’t get used much when it snows either?
This is simply not true, and I get tired of EV proponents repeating the myth. the set of people for whom EVs are ‘great options’ is much, much smaller than what’s laid out above.
It’s not just ‘access to home charging’, it’s ‘access to home charging at their home and any hotel they stay at and the houses of any friends, partners, or relatives that they stay at’. As soon as you get into use cases like ‘went on a date with Sarah on Thursday, stayed at her place, went to visit Grandma on the weekend’ you’re talking ‘distance per night at a charger’ rather than ‘distance per day’. If you’re an older person who mostly just goes to work, runs a few errands, and comes back home, fine. If you’re someone who doesn’t follow that pattern, whether it’s hooking up with different people 3 nights a week or spending a few days taking care of your ailing aunt. If you want to rent a beach house with a few friends for a week, you better limit yourself to one with enough chargers for all of you or spend a lot of your vacation playing musical cars.
The ‘typically drive less than 100-200 miles per day’ immediately shows it’s inaccuracy based on the fact that it’s really ‘per charge’ rather than ‘per day.’ But it also falls apart because you run into charging issues NOT just with 50-100 mile daily commutes, but if you engage in a long drive ‘per week’ or ‘per month’, or sporadically. Obviously trips over 200 miles in one direction run into charging issues, but even short 80 mile trips are likely to give you the ‘add an hour or more for charging’ if the destination doesn’t have home charging. Someone like my parents who typically drive less than 5 miles per day would HATE being stuck with an EV, because they would need to add in hours to trips that they make several times per month and would have to constrain their options for visiting people or attractions based on range and charge availability.
That has not been the case on this thread. EV proponents consistently grossly overstate the number and location of chargers, and to ignore charger availability issues like the ones highlighted by people waiting for hours to charge this past weekend. EV proponents also consistently talk about ‘miles/day’ figures when they really mean ‘miles/charge’, which indicates to me that they are not aware that not all people will be charging every night (or are being deceptive, I guess).
Same here. And same for my EV driving neighbors.
I agree with this one, note that Tesla will only warranty that it’s batteries will retain 70% capacity over the course of 8 years, 100,000 miles (125,000 for long range models), and other manufacturers fall into the same 60-80% zone. The people assuming 95% battery life after five years based on results from a few enthusiasts on a forum seem… wildly optimistic to me. Also I haven’t seen anything about how accurately the car computers measure range on a degraded battery; I would worry that a used car might tell me I have 200 miles of range when I really only have 180, which could lead to either getting stranded or me only feeling safe treating the car as if it had an even smaller actual range.
Apparently we don’t, because it’s impossible or something. :shrug:
I would venture that at least 85% of people in western Canada (aside from coastal BC) have easy access to a 120V outlet for their usual parking space. Apartment parking lots almost universally have assigned parking with power outlets. Most single dwellings have some sort of off-street parking one can get an extension cord to. Some older neighbourhoods rely pretty heavily on street parking - that would be the bulk of my estimated 15%. Many of those run extension cords out to the street in one fashion or another, either over the sidewalk (in violation of bylaws) or stringing them overhead to handy trees or whatever. Others just don’t plug in block heaters, which aren’t nearly as necessary for modern vehicles as they used to be back in the days of carburetors, and just pray that their cars will start on the truly cold days (-35 and such).
A great many workplaces also have plugs available for block heaters in their employee lots, though this is less universal than the situation with apartment lots.
My current car is too new to tell us anything, but I did have a Volt for 7 years. I plugged it in every night. My electric range didn’t change over the 7 years.
Then why does the Tesla website call these places"stores and galleries"?
And when I search Google for “buy a Tesla” why do I get this page on Tesla’s own website that saysnothing is available within 200 miles?
If I can’t browse to find a new car, and I can’t find a new car by going directly to the manufacturer’s website, how the hell am I supposed to find the car?
Meanwhile, would you also address the fact that I, as a curious potential car buyer, can only find 84 electric vehicles being offered in a metropolitan area of 2.5 million?
Never mind about finding a charger, the first thing I have to do is find a car!
I’ve done exactly 1 personal trip in the last 3 years that couldn’t be handled by a 200 mile range EV with no stops. And even that trip, assuming a Level 3 charger had been available, charging would have cost me at most, an additional 20 minutes (I already stopped for 30 minutes on the way up to let the dog run, and 2 hours on the way back for sightseeing). And I’m not unusual in my social group. I know multiple people that have a “weekday car” for a 80km round trip to work and a “weekend” car for taking the dirtbikes to the river. Based on our fuel costs, this person would save about $50 per week, $2500 per year or $12,500 in a 5 year ownership cycle on petrol by using an EV - that sure as hell funds adding a charging port to a convenient place on the property or a rather large price gap between an EV and an ICE. And that’s only based on current usage, not what’s coming.
Infrastructure, charging options, home charging, friends with chargers is only going to keep getting better and better. I’d be VERY surprised if, right now, every new apartment complex isn’t at least considering EV Charging as one of the factors in car parking etc.
More and more houses will have accessible charging. To expect things to stay as they are right now is unrealistic.
As I mentioned earlier - I can certainly remember a time and place where I very much DID have to plan petrol use, where to top up, petrol station opening times, vehicle range etc to exactly the same level as people are now complaining about planning for electricity top-ups.
One of the things that has provided an absolute sea change in ICE fuel availability for me is pay at pump 24 hour unmanned petrol stations. Without this, we simply would not have been able to go “road tripping” at night without first filling tank.
You’re still thinking about them as if they were a dealer with big parking lots full of cars. But new Teslas are only rarely sold from “inventory” (though not impossible: these are usually things like floor models).
Instead, you just order the car and in a few weeks it’s ready. The Tesla rep drives the car to a location of your choosing and either drives your trade-in back or takes an Uber.
Keeping in mind that I can’t speak for Tesla (I admit that I am not Elon Musk), I think they call the places where you buy their cars “stores” and not dealerships because they don’t use the franchised dealership business model of the traditional automakers. In fact in some states, the car dealers have lobbied to prevent cars from being sold directly to consumers. And I think the reason you don’t see any cars available within 200 miles is because they don’t really keep cars on a lot as do the traditional dealership. Instead, I think, they build cars to order.
$1k PUV EVs can’t handle rough roads because they are not that powerful, but a $1k AUV can.
I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned that it’s not hard to toss a charger in the car. My friends with EVs charge at places without chargers all the time. They just plug their charger into an outlet. If they are spending the night, a 120V outlet will do. If they are just dropping by for dinner, they may ask to use the drier’s 240V outlet.
Well, unlike Procrustus, my car’s (Ford) battery is definitely weaker than it started out. So is the battery of my friend who bought a used Leaf.
But if anything, the car underestimates the miles you can get on the degraded battery. That hasn’t been a problem for anyone I know.
That’s wonderful for folks with on-street driveways. My childhood suburban neighborhood had garages in back served by alleys; no on-street driveways within a mile. Our first adult suburban home was in an attached-garage district. Everyone had driveways - everyone but those in apartment blocks on the main boulevard, with uncovered detached parking. Thus, half the population lacked driveways.
Here in Late Capitalism, I expect employers, as a benefit for valued workers, will load corporate parking lots (covered with solar panels) with charging stations. The underclass won’t get outlets and must drive ICEVs, a mark of shame.
My ev-enthusiast friends also charged at work. She just arranged to park in her employer’s lot close enough to the electrical outlet for her extension cord to reach.
Yes, all this “just plug in wherever” stuff works best in the 50-70 miles per day scenario, not the 300 miles per day scenario. I never claimed EVs are an affordable option for those who need a lot of range. And this same friend lives with two other adults and together they own two or three cars, so if she CAN’T plug in somewhere she drives the ICE.
Back alley garages with no electricity? Really? No lighting in any garage all the way up and down the block? I find that very hard to believe.
I too live in a neighbourhood with no front driveways. Old 25-30’ frontage lots. Detached garages on the back alley are more common than not, but they all have power run to them and are probably more likely than attached garages to be semi-unfinished inside and hence even easier to install chargers in. Mine already has a 240v plug for a 4800w electric heater, so if I get an EV I’m all set.
You’re exactly the group that I said these work for; don’t travel & have multiple cars. BTW, congrats on being in the socio-economic strata that allows you & your friends to have multiple cars; you’re obviously more well off than the majority of people.
[ol]
[li]You know what they say about the word ASSUME, right?[/li][li]Your dogs need a 30 min romp on a 3½ drive? What kind are they? Are there charging stations at dog parks or can you only let them out on a leash at existing charge stations?[/li][li]Was there a charger at your sightseeing location? If not, that side trip is a non-sequitur.[/li][/ol]
But 24-hr gas does exist; has for quite some time; granted it’s a subset of all gas stations. For my holiday trip last week I could have gotten up a few minutes earlier & gone a few more miles out of my way to a 24-hr gas station but I much preferred to fuel up at 7pm the night before when I was already & normally awake than get up even earlier than I had to the next morning. That was only because I forgot to get gas earlier in the day. If the following day was a ‘normal’ day instead of a travel day, I wouldn’t have needed gas. I only needed 100% because of a long-distance trip. See, I forgot to get it when it was most convenient but it still cost me < 10 mins in wasted time & had I not thought about it when I did, I still had the option to refuel in the morning. The same can’t be said for the person who gets distracted & forgets to plug in in the evening.
Besides, with only one road trip in the past three years that how much impromptu, middle-of-the-night road tripping do you do? :dubious:
I don’t disagree; however, chargers cost money. If a developer allocates 10% of spaces to EV parking/charging, he’s overallocating based upon the current market. Yet, at some point in the future, that won’t be enough spaces so we’re right back to where we are today; living in a place w/o dedicated home charging. Besides, the number of new apartments being built is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of existing apartments.
So you’re saying I should buy a new car on what may be supported in five or 10 years? We won’t need EVs by then as we’ll have flying cars if not teleportation. :rolleyes:
You know I don’t disagree with the OP, the “EVs don’t work for me so they won’t work for anyone” mentality is bullshit but the flip side of that coin, “EVs work for me so they’ll work for everyone” is also bullshit.
They don’t work for people
[ul]
[li]Without dedicated home parking/charging options[/li][li]Who drive long distances with any regularity[/li][li]Who haul stuff[/li][li]Who tow stuff[/li][li]Who need 4WD - high clearance, knobby tires, off-roading type 4WD, not AWD because they park in a gravel lot once a year.[/li][li]Who can’t afford the cost of a new EV. Most are above the average cost of a new car & some of the older, used ones for sale have piss-poor range as they weren’t great when they were new & now have some battery degradation.[/li][/ul]
There’s a big difference between wave of the future & current day.
Okay, I dug around the Tesla web site and I get it. Tesla is like Amazon. Literally a few clicks and a car shows up at your door.
But more than Amazon, Tesla reminds me of the early days of Apple. A mysterious, out-of-the-box visionary comes up with an entirely new paradigm. He has a vision so fully formed that he can create its own infrastructure from the ground up - separate hardware, separate software, separate distribution network, everything. And he makes it so the two systems are pretty much incompatible, because the key to making his vision work is to design everything without compromise.
And this new product does a lot of stuff really, really well (and it looks cool, besides!) But of course, it can’t do everything equally well. In fact, there are a few things the new product does not do at all well.
Then the consumers end up in two camps. The traditionalist camp argues, “Your product can not do X or Y, therefore it’s useless.” The innovators shot back, “X and Y are niche concerns for a tiny subset. Get with the future.”
Eventually a shakeout happens. VHS beats out Betamax because longer recording time is more useful than somewhat better image quality. Blu-Ray beats out HDVD because Sony builds a multi-use (gaming and movies) platform. And Apple survives first by building a niche with creative software, and then by inventing a really cool phone and integrating it with the Mac.
I see Tesla at more of a crossroads than Chevy or Nissan or any of the other companies that have dipped their toes in the electric water. Will Tesla try to follow Ford’s 100+ year-old model by starting with a single vehicle, then slowly branching out? Will they try to survive as luxury car that doesn’t do X or Y, appealing to buyers who don’t need those functions? Will they become Microsoft, getting out of the hardware end of the market entirely and licensing their battery and charger technology to other companies?
My guess is that Tesla, much like Nikola Tesla himself, is discovering that mass producing a brilliant idea is often harder than having the brilliant idea.
Back alley garages mostly filled with stuff so cars parked unwatched in the alley, or on-street out front - within extension-cord range, sure, so run lines out across the lawn and sidewalk to trip passersby. And this is of no help to apartment-block dwellers.
TL;DR so I don’t know if anyone has yet brought up range extenders.
My emphasis. A Tesla towing a teardrop RE trailer - how kewl! No range anxiety!
The typical household with 2 people has 2.3 vehicles. Larger households have more.
Perhaps he was including persons outside the US.