# Electricity and Hurricanes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906 "2006-03-03T15:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/1 "2006-03-03T15:18:32Z")
:dubious: So how many people believe hurricanes are simply warm water reactions? HaHaHa! You fools, they are electric phenomena as well! Sorry I like doing that, but seriously they are. Let me point you to this article first, it’s a pretty good read and much of it is in layman’s for those of you lacking in comprehension. [Wilma the Superstorm and Energy from the Vacuum](http://pesn.com/2005/10/21/9600193_Wilma_Energy_from_the_Vacuum/) Now here’s what I love. You can really see the similarities between these two articles. I did a simple search on Google for “Electric dust devils mars” a couple weeks back and I found this article: [Electric Dust Devils on Mars](http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050321electridevils.htm) I did the search again to find the article for this post and I found this new article, as well: [Dust Devils on Mars Electrified, Study Suggests](http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/dust_devils_040420.html) Same picture used and everything. It’s like somebody just _has_ to keep people ignorant of the true nature of these storms. I know this forum is the Straight Dope, so I’m just calling it like I sees it. For those of you who don’t believe these storms to be anything more than warm rising air or hot water reactions, let’s discuss, so that I may smash your little inadequate tornado/hurricane model. The opinions of those who get their cognitive abilities from sitcoms and anti-depressants are of little importance or interest to me. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/2 "2006-03-03T15:29:28Z")
It’s certainly a rare pleasure to be insulted by someone who believes that the ancient Egyptians could build the pyramids [because gravity was weaker then](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7158837&postcount=41). ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/3 "2006-03-03T15:48:49Z")
Indeed it was, but not just the ancient Egyptians, the some of the Baalbek stones are 1200 tons. Quite a feat for a bunch of stupid natives with pointy sticks, eh? Also 200 lb birds were flying around, with pointy beaks indicating they were birds of prey that swooped down like our eagles. Dinosaurs like ultrasaurs were roaming around, much too big for their own good in this gravity. And then you got all sorts of calendar anomalies, like various tribes around the Earth that weren’t supposed to have any contact, but they have old orbits charted for the planet venus. Old orbits because they no longer exist, but they match up perfectly. So which is it? Stupid natives sharing their calendars and their stupid ideas, or the planets and solar system was much more different back in the day? Besides, this thread’s about the electric nature of these storms. So back on topic. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/4 "2006-03-03T15:52:45Z")
Yes, friction from rising warm air can cause an electrical potential difference to form, and equilibrium is only restored by an enormous, near instant flow of charge called “lightning”. _Who_ says that storms can’t be characterised electrically as well as thermodynamically? ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/5 "2006-03-03T15:55:07Z")
Around here, we like people to back up claims with actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/6 "2006-03-03T17:24:15Z")
Oh, right. Sorry. So these electric storms rumble onto land, and shake it! There is a definite geological connection, although it is not very well understood. [Earth trembles as big winds move in](http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18625065.900) > [@](#): > > HURRICANES can trigger swarms of weak earthquakes and even set the Earth vibrating, according to the first study of such effects. > > When Hurricane Charley slammed into Florida in August 2004, physicist Randall Peters of Mercer University in Macon, Georgia, had a seismometer ready to monitor any vibrations in the Earth’s crust. He did so for over 36 hours as Charley travelled briefly over Florida, then slid back out into the Atlantic. > > As the hurricane reached land, the seismometer recorded a series of “micro-tremors” from the Earth’s crust. This happened again as the storm moved back out to sea. Then, as Charley grazed the continental shelf on its way out, it caused a sharp seismic spike. “I suspect the storm triggered a subterranean landslide,” says Peters. Could it have something to do with the eletric nature of the hurricane? I think so! From Harvard University’s Dr. Bridget Samuels paper titled [Quake Science: Advances in Earthquake Prediction](http://hcs.harvard.edu/~hsr/pdfswinter2003/samuels51-53.pdf) > [@](#): > > Nikolai Tarasovre-analyzed the available data from these tests in 1993 and discovered a striking correlation between the induced charges and the earthquakes that followed. About two thirds of the electromagnetic pulses were followed by earthquakes, some releasing up to a million times as much energy as had been applied during the preceding experiment. This may be because the electricity heated the groundwater and thus increased its pressure, triggering instability (as is known to have occurred in the Rocky Mountain waste disposal site during the 1960’s), or it may be explain-able by the piezoelectric effect… So what gives? Well these recent hurricanes gave us a little more indications of what they really are. Lightning around the eye walls was some of the most intense ever, and it was all cloud to cloud or cloud to ground. No ground to air… hmmm… [From NASA, titled “Electric Hurricanes”](http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/09jan_electrichurricanes.htm) > [@](#): > > Within thunderclouds, vertical winds cause ice crystals and water droplets (called “hydrometeors”) to bump together. This “rubbing” causes the hydrometeors to become charged. Think of rubbing your socked feet across wool carpet–zap! Pure garbage! They try and give a ridiculous excuse that _vertical_ winds aren’t present in hurricanes without lightning, so the water droplets don’t rub together HaHaHa! If the overall net energy energy in a hurricane remains constant like they would like us to believe, why is it the only direction we really see the lightning move is down? > [@NASA](#): > > Who you gonna believe? Us, or your lying eyes? Katrina, Rita and Wilma were conveniently left out of the flight testing campaign, and were instead tested by long-range sensors, so basically we know squat about their specifics of their electric fields. But come on, just looking at the beasts and the perfection of the eyes and their tiny, tight size shows me that they had by far the strongest electric fields we would have ever recorded. Wilma’s eye was only 2 miles wide for a while! From a National Geographic Kids! article [FLYING INTO THE EYE OF A HURRICANE](http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngkids/0308/hurricane/) > [@](#): > > As the planes struggle toward the eye, the pilots fight intense updrafts and downdrafts. The hurricane pelts the planes with rain and hail. Static electricity builds up and then discharges with a flash and a loud bang, causing the crew’s hair to literally stand on end. That sounds pretty electric to me… What’s funny to me is that they this storm was so intense, did so much damage, and then they try to tell us it was a Category 4 when it hit land, no no wait, a large Category 3 now they say. Whatever, as one person who was related to someone surveying the damage after it hit had to say: > [@](#): > > My daughter was in Pascagoula, Mississippi this week, and took this picture. She said that these homes were about 1/4 mile from the beach. What is hard to believe is that this location is nearly 60 miles away from where the center of Katrina came ashore. [Picture of the damage](http://www.fuglyforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=6944) Besides, just imagine an electric currect passing, or check [this picture](http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/magcur.gif) out if you can’t, and imagine that energy passing through the eye, with the circling field around it. Same thing. From that [Space.com](http://Space.com) article I’m sure you didn’t read: > [@](#): > > The conclusion is based on studies in Arizona and Nevada, where researchers raced across the deserts to catch dust devils and drive right through them. They found unexpectedly large electric fields exceeding 4,000 volts per meter. > > Dust devils are like miniature tornadoes, though their formation is completely different. The smallest variety can be kicked up by gentle breezes in a vacant city lot. More notable versions can be as wide as a house or a football field with winds up to 60 mph (96 kilometers per hour). They are created by wind that swirls around a column of warm, rising air. I love how they really slam home that “caused by warm, rising air” thing. They really, really need you to believe that. As if warm rising air can create an F5, sustain it, and drive the forces that keep this air swirling around itself, instead of disperse it. Isn’t the pressure in the middle of a tornado, hurricane, dust devil extremely low, anyways? > [@](#): > > Scientists had not expected dust devils to be charged. That’s because the dust particles aren’t supposed to be rubbing as much, but the bigger-than-supposed-to-be electric field is still there. From [this article](http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050321electridevils.htm) titled “Electric Dust Devils on Mars” you probably also failed to read: > [@](#): > > In July, 1999, Wallace Thornhill wrote “The 5 mile high dust devils on Mars and the global Martian dust storms are, I believe, a manifestation of electric discharges on Mars.” And more recently, he wrote “Make no mistake, the Martian dust devils are tornadoes that dwarf their earthly counterpart… Clouds are not required to generate them. They are an atmospheric electric discharge phenomenon”. > > Today, interest in the electrical nature of Martian dust devils is growing rapidly. In a report in Astrobiology Magazine, Dr. William Farrell of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center reports: “If martian dust devils are highly electrified, as our research suggests, they might give rise to increased discharging or arcing in the low-pressure Martian atmosphere”. According to Thornhill, such arcing in the rarified atmosphere of Mars would have the appearance of a glow discharge, not unlike that of a lightning “sprite” above terrestrial thunderstorms Discuss! ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/7 "2006-03-03T17:37:57Z")
[Immanuel Velikovsky?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky) Is that you? I thought you were dead… ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/8 "2006-03-03T17:51:01Z")
No dear, I came back just to shove all the new evidence we’ve accumulated in all the disbeliever’s faces. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/9 "2006-03-03T18:02:08Z")
> [@smurfslappa](#): > > The opinions of those who get their cognitive abilities from sitcoms Cite? ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/10 "2006-03-03T18:15:43Z")
> [@Mark S. Watson](#): > > The opinions of those who get their cognitive abilities from sitcoms and anti-depressants are of little importance or interest to me. From his articles previously titled “The Coming Economic Depression” which are now called the lamer “The Political, Economic and Spiritual Review”. [The Depression articles](http://www.markswatson.com/Depression1.html) [The first of the new series, “The Political, Economic and Spiritual Review”](http://www.markswatson.com/PESR1.html) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/11 "2006-03-03T18:25:37Z")
> [@smurfslappa](#): > > From his articles previously titled “The Coming Economic Depression” which are now called the lamer “The Political, Economic and Spiritual Review”. > > [The Depression articles](http://www.markswatson.com/Depression1.html) > > [The first of the new series, “The Political, Economic and Spiritual Review”](http://www.markswatson.com/PESR1.html) So, basically, you plagiarised. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/12 "2006-03-03T18:29:05Z")
Shut up, D\_Odds. You obviously stole that polysyllabic word from teh Internets, since everyone here take their cognitive abilities from sitcoms. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/13 "2006-03-03T18:35:34Z")
Well, I do loves me an episode of _Benny Hill_. ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/14 "2006-03-03T18:59:43Z")
Hah! You’re the greatest D\_Odds. > [@surely someone](#): > > Anyone got any thoughts on this electric weather stuff, though? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/15 "2006-03-03T19:13:36Z")
Nope, I’m too busy watching American Idol and popping Lithium. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/16 "2006-03-03T19:52:05Z")
> [@smurfslappa](#): > > HaHaHa! You fools, they are electric phenomena as well! > > Sorry I like doing that, . . . > . . . > > The opinions of those who get their cognitive abilities from sitcoms and anti-depressants are of little importance or interest to me. You’re in luck, because I am not taking any psychoactive drugs and I rarely watch sitcoms, so my opinion should be of some importance and a lot of interest to you: Back off on the insults. If you’d like to wander in here with “alternative” science to see whether it can stand up to scrutiny, feel free. If you are going to follow the path of a number of “alternative” science advocates who have preceded you and simply hurl insults, make wild claims, and fail to engage in actual discussion, you are not welcome. Statements such as > [@](#): > > No dear, I came back just to shove all the new evidence we’ve accumulated in all the disbeliever’s faces. make you look like a supercilious twit rather than a serious proponent of better science. Statements such as > [@](#): > > Quite a feat for a bunch of stupid natives with pointy sticks, eh? simply make you look foolish, since no serious archaeologist or historian would ever claim that “natives” (whatever those are, in context) were “stupid.” Post your thoughts and citations and leave out the commentary (particularly the erroneous commentary and most especially the insulting remarks). * * * Everyone else: no one is forcing you to post to this thread. Either address the claims made or ignore it, but let’s not start feeding the level of hostility, here. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/17 "2006-03-03T20:05:16Z")
It is no great trick to move massive objects with human muscle by means of mechanical advantage gained through simple machines such as levers and pulleys. The modern mind just thinks it’s a great trick because we’ve become so accustomed to moving massive objects with hydraulic rams and electric winches that most of us have forgotten how to make effective use of simple machines. ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/18 "2006-03-03T20:15:39Z")
[tony montana voice]Wrong thread, mane.[/tony montana voice] ---
**Author:** ![TwoTrouts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@TwoTrouts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoTrouts)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/19 "2006-03-03T20:28:33Z")
I really do not understand the debate here. There is an electrical component to hurricanes? So what? The warm water provides the energy and moisture to the storm, which has been demonstrated by noting the water temperature change after a hurricane passes, sometimes by as much as 2 degrees. This energy is released in high winds and violent bursts of lightning. As for the microtremors, that is nothing new either. The release of all that energy in the form of tidal surges and waves gets the coast ringing seismically. You can feel it when standing on a beach as a hurricane approaches. One can feel the approach of large waves as vibrations in the ground, followed by a definite shudder as the wave breaks upon the shore. Magnify that a few-fold for when the storm peaks, and I am not surprised that it registers on siesmographs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906/20 "2006-03-03T20:39:27Z")
> [@smurfslappa](#): > > Indeed it was, but not just the ancient Egyptians, the some of the Baalbek stones are 1200 tons. Quite a feat for a bunch of stupid natives with pointy sticks, eh? Also 200 lb birds were flying around, with pointy beaks indicating they were birds of prey that swooped down like our eagles. Dinosaurs like ultrasaurs were roaming around, much too big for their own good in this gravity. And then you got all sorts of calendar anomalies, like various tribes around the Earth that weren’t supposed to have any contact, but they have old orbits charted for the planet venus. Old orbits because they no longer exist, but they match up perfectly. > > So which is it? Stupid natives sharing their calendars and their stupid ideas, or the planets and solar system was much more different back in the day? > > Besides, this thread’s about the electric nature of these storms. So back on topic. No, let’s not. What is the rate of change of gravity, huh? If it was different enough to let those quite clever builders move these large stones 4 - 5 thousand years ago, the dinosaurs must have been practically floating. T Rex should have been able to leap tall buildings with a single bound. Why they evolved such heavy legbones is an interesting question, though. BTW, anyone ever watching the weather channel knows that thunder storm cells are associated with hurricanes. But \*post hoc ergo propter hoc \* is still a fallacy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electricity-and-hurricanes/346906.md?page=2)