# Electronic tracking: new constraint for Saudi women. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913 "2012-11-23T17:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/1 "2012-11-23T17:04:59Z")
The absurdity of this leaves me stunned. :dubious: I didn’t realize Saudi women needed a relatives permission to leave the country. [Electronic tracking](http://www.france24.com/en/20121122-electronic-tracking-new-constraint-saudi-women) just adds another layer of oppression. > [@](#): > > Denied the right to travel without consent from their male guardians and banned from driving, women in Saudi Arabia are now monitored by an electronic system that tracks any cross-border movements. > > Since last week, Saudi women’s male guardians began receiving text messages on their phones informing them when women under their custody leave the country, even if they are travelling together. > [@](#): > > Women are not allowed to leave the kingdom without permission from their male guardian, who must give his consent by signing what is known as the “yellow sheet” at the airport or border. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/2 "2012-11-23T17:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I didn’t realize Saudi women needed a relatives permission to leave the country. Saudi women need a male relative’s permission to BREATHE. If they were allowed to leave the country without permission, how many women do you think would be left? I can’t think of anything that a Saudi woman can do outside her own home that doesn’t require a male relative’s permission. This article is a few years old, but I think it’s still valid: [SAUDI ARABIA: A nightmare for women](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/04/saudi-arabia-a.html) . ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/3 "2012-11-23T17:19:25Z")
Vomit. What else is there to say? ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/4 "2012-11-23T17:41:23Z")
A really great book about this sort of thing is Christopher Buckley’s _Florence of Arabia._ About the attempts of the U.S. government to bring freedom to Muslim women in a fictional country on the Arabian coast, and the spectacular chaos that resulted. A real page-turner. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/5 "2012-11-23T19:00:58Z")
Saudi men must have tiny little dicks to be that afraid of women. All Saudi women should refuse to have sex with Saudi men until this nonsense is made illegal. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/6 "2012-11-23T19:09:40Z")
I’m not sure that even Susan B. Anthony would have much success against sharia law. The extreme punishments they can impose is pretty daunting. ---
**Author:** ![aaelghat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c5a1d2/32.png) [@aaelghat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaelghat)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/7 "2012-11-23T21:00:10Z")
The news stories on this are a bit distorted… The Saudi Ministry of Interior has been trying to implement a eGoverment program so that people don’t have to call or visit the government offices. As an example, electronic travel permits can be issued via the internet instead of visiting a passport office. The Ministry can also send informational SMS texts. One of the informational events is when a dependent (wives are classified as dependents) successfully processes through immigration (a slightly similar analogy to receiving SMS updates on flight status). It’s a system the traveler needs to register with at the Ministry of Interior, giving their mobile number. The system has been in place since 2010, but the [SMS feature](https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/nic/!ut/p/b1/tdBNDoIwEAXgs3iCzlCKdQlV2irlJxXUbgwLQ0gQNsbzi0RXRuLG2U3yvZfMEEdOyJADpYwiORLX1_e2qW_t0Nfdc3fBuQDYrCIMAZQE0Eybva84SvsMnEYQvQFXZgSqqLzSVHqTwG95-DLh3_P20pMDcRNjIheaG4pS-AK0jxVYwWi5Zi8g08pSqShmngxAG-Gtk6wAkeJHQ14uwYuX_lYEOx4AvMDcoyYwc0mqhuuFXF0Xx9zqNm8WD_E01Hg!/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/) was only recently turned on. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/8 "2012-11-23T21:22:48Z")
Thanks aaelghat. That makes more sense. So, it’s not an actual tracking device. Just a SMS update that was previously requested. Darn press always exaggerates things. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/9 "2012-11-23T21:23:02Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Saudi men must have tiny little dicks to be that afraid of women. All Saudi women should refuse to have sex with Saudi men until this nonsense is made illegal. I am pretty sure that Saudi women are not legally allowed to refuse to have sex with their husbands. Once they’re married, then they cannot be raped by their husbands. I hope I’m wrong, but remember, it’s only very recent that the US recognized that marital rape happens. > [@aaelghat](#): > > The news stories on this are a bit distorted… > > The Saudi Ministry of Interior has been trying to implement a eGoverment program so that people don’t have to call or visit the government offices. As an example, electronic travel permits can be issued via the internet instead of visiting a passport office. > > The Ministry can also send informational SMS texts. One of the informational events is when a dependent (wives are classified as dependents) successfully processes through immigration (a slightly similar analogy to receiving SMS updates on flight status). > > It’s a system the traveler needs to register with at the Ministry of Interior, giving their mobile number. The system has been in place since 2010, but the [SMS feature](https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/nic/%21ut/p/b1/tdBNDoIwEAXgs3iCzlCKdQlV2irlJxXUbgwLQ0gQNsbzi0RXRuLG2U3yvZfMEEdOyJADpYwiORLX1_e2qW_t0Nfdc3fBuQDYrCIMAZQE0Eybva84SvsMnEYQvQFXZgSqqLzSVHqTwG95-DLh3_P20pMDcRNjIheaG4pS-AK0jxVYwWi5Zi8g08pSqShmngxAG-Gtk6wAkeJHQ14uwYuX_lYEOx4AvMDcoyYwc0mqhuuFXF0Xx9zqNm8WD_E01Hg%21/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/) was only recently turned on. While this is informative, it REINFORCES the fact that the Saudi women are not allowed to travel out of the country without the permission of their owners. Yes, I said owners. The women are essentially the property of their male relatives. Wives should not be classified as dependents, but as independent adults! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/10 "2012-11-23T21:33:03Z")
> [@](#): > > “This is technology used to serve backwardness in order to keep women imprisoned,” said Bishr, the columnist Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/11 "2012-11-23T21:47:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Saudi men must have tiny little dicks to be that afraid of women. All Saudi women should refuse to have sex with Saudi men until this nonsense is made illegal. That would explain FGM. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/12 "2012-11-23T21:47:41Z")
maybe they’ve got something there with reason #3: > **[5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women: Update](https://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html)** > > Go to the front page of any mostly male discussion site like Reddit.com and see how many inches you can browse before finding several thousand men bemoaning how all women are gold-digging whores (7,500 upvotes) and how crazy and irrational women are... (yes, I know cracked is a humor site.) ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/13 "2012-11-23T23:47:49Z")
You know, this new development might benefit Saudi women who are computer literate. What if a Saudi woman was able to hack her male guardian’s mobile phone and give herself permission to travel without his knowledge and approval? And also, publish step by step instructions so other oppressed Saudi women can take advantage until the establishment stops this loophole? It would serve those misogynists right. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/14 "2012-11-24T05:37:54Z")
Why don’t they just microchip the Saudi women and put shock collars on them and give up any pretence that it is anything but oppression on a national scale? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/15 "2012-11-24T06:02:40Z")
I’m sure that chipping and collars are next. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/16 "2012-11-24T06:28:44Z")
I am considering a start up business in Riyadh, that installs an “invisible fence” in your yard at home, that taze’s your wife via the battery operated collar she must wear. I bet I could retire a billionaire in 5 years if approved Anyone interested in a franchise? I am looking to expand in the UK, and Dearborn, Michigan next ---
**Author:** ![aaelghat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c5a1d2/32.png) [@aaelghat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaelghat)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/17 "2012-11-24T07:00:37Z")
The Saudi government treats women as second-class citizens, and there are certainly rampant human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, but having said that, the reaction to this particular news story is a little over the top. The Ministry of Interior has over [60 events that will trigger an SMS message](http://www.yesser.gov.sa/en/mediacenter/news/Pages/News-261.aspx) to inform subscribers of changes. [Did you (as a subscriber) commit a traffic violation? You get an SMS](http://www.saher.gov.sa/e_Ticket-information.aspx). Do you have a document that [got renewed or needs renewal](http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentid=20120227118417)? Get an SMS. Do you need to get an exit visa? - get an SMS. Do you have a dependent who succesfully processed through immigration? Get an SMS (the SMS doesn’t say where the dependent is going or when they are returning - just that the transaction was succesful). The government is basically trying to notify subscribers through an opt-in service of anything they can, to eliminate phone calls and in-person visits, as well as enable transactions via computers and cell phones. The immigration notifications do highlight the fact that women are dependents - treated the same way as sons and daughters. The male guardianship role is certainly undesirable, but in context the headline of _“Electronic tracking: new constraint for Saudi women”_ is sensationalism. If for no other reason, than the fact that the travel wouldn’t be happening in the first place without the guardian’s filling out (electronically) a form for the wife because she is legally viewed as a dependent. On the other hand, there are some small, incremental, positive movements. Women now have their own public identity cards, a decision which gave women more freedom in many financial and legal transactions. Previously, women could only be registered on their fathers’ or husband’s cards. Last year, King Abdullahgranted women the right to vote and hold office in the next election cycle. These are certainly small steps, but hopefully they aren’t the last. Again, I am critical of the male guardianship model, and it’s something which will hopefully some day go away, but focusing just on the OP, the e-tracking system isn’t really a new “constraint” at all - it’s just bad reporting all around. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/18 "2012-11-24T08:57:57Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thanks aaelghat. That makes more sense. So, it’s not an actual tracking device. Just a SMS update that was previously requested. > > Darn press always exaggerates things. 😉 aaaaaaaagggggghhhhhh. Do you not understand that a woman can’t LEAVE THE COUNTRY without permission and if she attempts to her penis-enabled caretaker is notified so as to rectify the situation? How is this an exaggeration? Women are slaves of their husbands/fathers/brothers. I though maybe your post was a woosh until your followup post. The op example is not an exaggeration. It’s modern technology applied backwards hundreds of years and the tiny increments of freedom you provided as examples of improvement is nothing but a slave with a cleaner shirt to wear. ---
**Author:** ![aaelghat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c5a1d2/32.png) [@aaelghat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaelghat)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/19 "2012-11-24T09:54:44Z")
"if she attempts to her penis-enabled caretaker is notified so as to rectify the situation? How is this an exaggeration? " Go back and re-read my post. I’m not an apologist for the Saudi treatment - everything I wrote was factual. The reason the press report is an exaggeration is because the purpose of the SMS isn’t to allow the guardian to rectify the situation. The SMS is sent after the fact and states the dependent left the country - not where they went or when they will return. Similar to the document renewal SMS - “of course it was renewed - I just renewed it”. On the former, the dependent exit information would already be known by the husband from other documents he would have had to fill out. The fact that women’s individual rights are trampled by needing a guardian, and that the article takes things out of context are not mutually exclusive - both things are true. With regards to the increments of freedom, I don’t disagree, that’s why I phrased it the way I did. ---
**Author:** ![taskmgr.exe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@taskmgr.exe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taskmgr.exe)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913/20 "2012-11-24T10:41:14Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Saudi men must have tiny little dicks to be that afraid of women. Disrespectful whelp. I believe you wrote that out of anger. You’re right to be angry. Authority in Arab World tend to be backwards, and deserve offensive words. But that doesn’t mean you can offend anyone from Arab countries, or living in Arab counties. That’s not nice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-tracking-new-constraint-for-saudi-women/641913.md?page=2)