# Electronic/video blackjack **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 7, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983 "2009-06-07T03:26:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/21 "2009-06-11T05:28:41Z")
> [@King\_Friday](#): > > I have to question this. It says very clearly on the display screen that the 6 deck shoe is shuffled when 2/3 of the shoe has been played. Can I ask “Who ya gonna believe, me or your own lying eyes?” 😃 I defer to your personal observation, perhaps it is jurisdictional variation, perhaps the software has been modified nation-wide. I haven’t seen one of the machines or been in a casino in over a year (I didn’t take being terminated well) and my experience was limited to Arizona and Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/22 "2009-06-11T15:43:57Z")
Note that I said it is “likely” the deck is shuffled after every hand; there are indeed some machines that do not. There are, or at least have been, some BJ machines that dealt deep enough into the deck and / or allowed a big enough bet spread that an expert card counter could gain an advantage. I have only seen a couple of them, and only in the very competitive market of downtown Las Vegas. Dealing 2/3 of six decks is probably not beatable, at least not for any significant amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/23 "2009-06-11T15:52:34Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The ACTUAL play in all casino games is a random walk to bankruptcy. The fun of gambling derives from the structure of anticipation that individual players build on top of this random walk. I Understand where you are coming from here, Hamster, but I disagree in part. You are implying that everyone walks away from a casino, and if they are walking away, they are walking way broke. For the most part, I agree. However, there are some of us that know when to walk, ans when we CHOSE to walk, we walk with a profit. And, of course some people get a Million plus on a slot pull, and they only have spent 5 minutes in a casino. I budget my money for a quarterly trip to a casino, I enjoy myself, and I take a minimal bankroll. (As I posted, its a 3 hour drive for me, which frankly, probably helps. - Get to enjoy the road trip in ““going”” to the casino as much as being there… well, almost) Some people golf, and pay IMHO outrageous tee fees. I don’t see how gambling is that different. Practice and Information on what NOT to do can help in the long run. [A real LUCKY pull on a slot machine paid out 900 bucks. -Giving me 123 dollars profit for my entire trip, if I had decided to blow the rest of my bankroll. – I came home with the 900, and some of my bankroll unspent. - I bought a Japanese ““Skill Stop”” slot machine with the money once I got home. Go Figure.] > [@dba\_Fred](#): > > **Meeko** is correct, it is a multi-player slot machine, controlled by a standard tower computer. The platform was created by Sega for use in video game arcades, Shuffle Master purchased them, wrote the gaming software and modified them to be a gaming platform. Heh. I like Shuffle Master. I had a ““System”” going to beat let it ride. I got to Vegas, and realized that their idea of a minimum bet, and Real Deal Slots Casino’s (Non-money offline casino software) idea of a minimum bet are two different things. But run this by me again, Shuffle Master bought stuff from Sega?! Wow. I mean, I know Nintendo laid into Sega pretty hard there, but, it is a small world. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/24 "2009-06-11T16:49:30Z")
If you had a system to “beat” a game, and you think that really works, you don’t know too much about gambling. 😉 On the other hand, if your system is designed to slow the rate of loss, in the hopes of increasing the chance of managing a big win before you get squeezed out of your bankroll, well, yeah, that’s different. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/25 "2009-06-11T17:37:17Z")
There most certainly are beatable games. I earned my living playing BJ, a few other oddball casino games, video poker and slot machines for 10 years and have been playing poker for a living for the past 10 years. I have friends who have been playing video poker and progressive slots for a living since 1982. And yes, I recognize that poker is a different animal than the “house” games. ---
**Author:** ![King\_Friday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@King\_Friday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_Friday)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/26 "2009-06-11T19:07:34Z")
How do you guys feel about those Player Reward cards? I’ve always felt that I don’t want “them” tracking my winnings, as this might trigger something in the machine to make sure I lose. Am I over-thinking this? I’ve been on quite a run at the video bj lately and don’t want to upset the casino Gods. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/27 "2009-06-11T19:26:12Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > I Understand where you are coming from here, Hamster, but I disagree in part. You are implying that everyone walks away from a casino, and if they are walking away, they are walking way broke. I think “random walk to bankruptcy” is accurate. The nature of a random walk allows for excursions into positive territory, and some gamblers do walk away while ahead. Of course, plenty of others take being ahead as a good reason to continue, and the inevitable eventually overtakes them. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/28 "2009-06-11T19:31:09Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > There most certainly are beatable games. I earned my living playing BJ, a few other oddball casino games, video poker and slot machines for 10 years and have been playing poker for a living for the past 10 years. I have friends who have been playing video poker and progressive slots for a living since 1982. How can games that are truly random and set up with a house advantage be beatable, long-term? I thought the only “beatable” casino game was blackjack, and only when card-counting can be successfully employed. ---
**Author:** ![JonathanTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JonathanTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonathanTheRed)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/29 "2009-06-11T19:51:13Z")
> [@King\_Friday](#): > > How do you guys feel about those Player Reward cards? I’ve always felt that I don’t want “them” tracking my winnings, as this might trigger something in the machine to make sure I lose. Am I over-thinking this? I don’t know if you’re “over-thinking”, but you’re wrong. Aside from the fact that using your past results to affect your present odds would be illegal, the casino doesn’t _track_ your winnings or losses; they track your _play_. From the casino’s perspective it essentially works out to the same thing, since over the long run your losses will be equal to your play times your house edge. As for those cards, depending on how much action you give the house, they could be very rewarding indeed. Once your play reaches a certain level, the casinos will start offering you comps. My last trip to Vegas, I had a complimentary room, $200 in complimentary casino chips (can only be bet, not cashed, and are lost whether the bet wins or loses), and $50 in complimentary room credit. > [@](#): > > I’ve been on quite a run at the video bj lately and don’t want to upset the casino Gods. I can’t help you there… if you’re going to get into the realm of superstition, I’m unfamiliar with its workings. > [@Xema](#): > > How can games that are truly random and set up with a house advantage be beatable, long-term? I thought the only “beatable” casino game was blackjack, and only when card-counting can be successfully employed. Depends. Poker is “beatable” in the sense that your opponents are the other players, not the house, and if you’re good enough that you beat the other players by a big enough margin to cover the house rake, you can make money at poker. Blackjack is, as you say, beatable with card counting, but the casinos have become quite adept at detecting counters and will ask you to leave if you’re good at it. There is (or was) at least one video poker machine that paid off at 100.8% with perfect play. “Perfect play” at video poker, though, is counterintuitive and requires balls of steel… you need to do things like, when dealt AH AS JH JS TH, discard the spades and hope for a royal. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/30 "2009-06-11T20:40:46Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > FWIW : I live in Atlanta, there is a Harrah’s in North Carolina, and a local “Raceino” in Alabama. The NC drive is 2.5 hours, AL is 3. Slightly off topic, but there is actually another casino in driving range of Atlanta. There is a casino cruise operating out of Savannah Ga, so about a 3 hr drive, and then a slight cruise outside Georgia waters. However, they have real cards for their table games, which make it worth while for me. Just thought I would let you know there is another choice. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/31 "2009-06-11T20:42:07Z")
RE: Player Reward cards … Don’t play without one. If the casino is giving you something, take it. In places where they give cash back on the cards the money can actually turn a losing game into a beatable one. The software these days does keep track of your winnings / losses, in fact, it tracks every coin you have put in every machine and every coin paid out. It does not, however, allow them to in any way alter the nature of the machine you are playing … there is no button they can push to make any individual machine or player win or lose. It is extremely rare for a casino to stop a slot player; the only only I know of offhand was Bob Dancer who wrote a book about the year he won a million dollars playing video poker. (BTW, I took lessons from him and used his software and books several years before his big year. Video poker is not actually hard to beat but it is tedious.) RE: “How can games … with a house advantage be beatable?” The basic answer is that some games are games of ‘independent trials’ and some are games of ‘dependent trials’. Dice and roulette wheels have no memory, each game is an independent trial, therefore the house advantage is the same on each and every trial and those games are not beatable. A deck of cards does have a memory, the situation changes as cards are removed from the deck and winning strategies can be devised based on having knowledge of that altered deck. In video poker the payoff table for the different types of hands determines whether or not a winning strategy can be devised. As an example, for the game of Deuces Wild, assuming the proper pay table, a winning strategy consists of only a few lines, can be written on a match pack, and can be played by virtually anyone with only a couple minutes of instruction. The ‘perfect strategy’ is a bit more complex but still only requires perhaps 10 hours of practice for someone of average intelligence to learn. And, FYI, there are **no** beatable slots on the online gambling sites. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/32 "2009-06-11T20:42:38Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > There most certainly are beatable games. I earned my living playing BJ, a few other oddball casino games, video poker and slot machines for 10 years and have been playing poker for a living for the past 10 years. I have friends who have been playing video poker and progressive slots for a living since 1982. > > And yes, I recognize that poker is a different animal than the “house” games. If you are making money playing blackjack, you are doing it by card-counting. That’s technically a betting system, but not in the sense that you can apply it to, say, Keno, or Chemin-de-fer. ---
**Author:** ![King\_Friday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@King\_Friday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_Friday)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/33 "2009-06-11T20:46:30Z")
> [@JonathanTheRed](#): > > I don’t know if you’re “over-thinking”, but you’re wrong. Aside from the fact that using your past results to affect your present odds would be illegal, the casino doesn’t _track_ your winnings or losses; they track your _play_. From the casino’s perspective it essentially works out to the same thing, since over the long run your losses will be equal to your play times your house edge. > > As for those cards, depending on how much action you give the house, they could be very rewarding indeed. Once your play reaches a certain level, the casinos will start offering you comps. My last trip to Vegas, I had a complimentary room, $200 in complimentary casino chips (can only be bet, not cashed, and are lost whether the bet wins or loses), and $50 in complimentary room credit. > . Well then hell, I’m going there tonight…I may just have to get one. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/34 "2009-06-11T20:53:49Z")
> [@JonathanTheRed](#): > > There is (or was) at least one video poker machine that paid off at 100.8% with perfect play. “Perfect play” at video poker, though, is counterintuitive … So you make, on average, $80 for every $10k you bet? Sounds like a fairly low hourly rate. And why would the game be set up to allow any possible edge to the player? ---
**Author:** ![JonathanTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JonathanTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonathanTheRed)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/35 "2009-06-11T20:56:33Z")
> [@King\_Friday](#): > > Well then hell, I’m going there tonight…I may just have to get one. Thanks! Well, Turble contradicted me on the tracking of wins/losses, so I should emphasize that my experience is almost entirely at the tables, not the slots. At the tables, the pit boss is just keeping track of what game you’re playing, how long you’re playing it for, and your (approximate) average bet, which the casino can use to make a very good estimate of how much money they can expect to make from you which in turn informs their comp offers. Slot play may work differently. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/36 "2009-06-11T20:58:34Z")
> [@JonathanTheRed](#): > > Once your play reaches a certain level, the casinos will start offering you comps. But isn’t this saying, in effect, “This guy is a big enough sucker and contributing enough to our bottom line that it’s clearly worth some inducement to get him to spend his money here, rather than across the street.” ? ---
**Author:** ![JonathanTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JonathanTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonathanTheRed)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/37 "2009-06-11T21:27:08Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But isn’t this saying, in effect, “This guy is a big enough sucker and contributing enough to our bottom line that it’s clearly worth some inducement to get him to spend his money here, rather than across the street.” ? Sure, in the same sense that a bar offering free peanuts does so because they know that the “suckers” who give them their custom will offset the cost. It irritates me to hear gamblers described as “suckers”. Some are, undoubtedly. Maybe even most. Certainly anybody who walks into a casino expecting to make money is, with the exceptions of very good poker players or card counters (_edit: or employees_). But others, including myself, are simply making the rational choice to spend money for entertainment. For the purpose of entertainment, people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars sampling fine wines, taking skydiving lessons, attending Broadway musicals, and so forth. Are all these people suckers, or just gamblers? When I put $10 on a blackjack table, I know that I can only expect to get $9.90 or so back. And when I put $10 on a movie theater ticket counter, I know that I can expect to get $0 back. Which of these actions would make me a sucker? ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/38 "2009-06-11T22:24:50Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > So you make, on average, $80 for every $10k you bet? Sounds like a fairly low hourly rate. > > And why would the game be set up to allow any possible edge to the player? The hourly rate depends entirely on how much you put in the machine per hour. You might be surprised at how quickly you can put $10k into a slot machine. Let’s look at a couple examples of a machine thats pays back 100.8%. Keep in mind that standard video poker machines take five coins at a time, so a $1 machine means $5 bet per hand. Tourists will play from 400 to 600 hands per hour, pros will play around 700 to 1000 hands per hour depending on the difficulty of the game and the speed at which the machine deals. Let’s take a look at slow pro playing 700 hands/hour at 100.8%. $1 machine … $5 x 700 x 0.008 = $28/hour He’s not getting rich, but he’s not flipping burgers for minimum wage either. If he is on a limited bankroll he might make an effort to play faster to increase his hourly earn, if he has the bankroll he can move up to $5 machines and earn five times as much. On higher level machines the play is much slower because you have to stop and sign tax forms for every payout over $1200. $25 machine … $125 x 400 x 0.008 = $400/hour And the $100 machines would play even more slowly but the hourly win would still be greater. As for why there are beatable video poker machines … The original machines were too tight. They got a lot of play in the beginning but play tapered off quickly as people realized how fast they were losing their money. Since they were not permitted to mess with the way the cards were dealt, they fiddled with the pay table to adjust the odds, and some guys like me sat home on their newly invented Apple computers writing programs to figure out if the games were beatable. A lot of casino managers still don’t believe they are … and a lot of professional video poker players can tell you to the third decimal place exactly how much each play they make will win or lose … but most people won’t bother to learn how to play, just like in blackjack … the knowledge that it can be beaten is enough keep the vast majority of players happily losing their money and telling their friends “I made enough to pay for the trip.” ---
**Author:** ![JonathanTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JonathanTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonathanTheRed)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/39 "2009-06-11T22:50:48Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > On higher level machines the play is much slower because you have to stop and sign tax forms for every payout over $1200. This really applies between hands? I thought it only kicked in when you cash out. But I don’t play the machines, so what do I know? > [@](#): > > … the knowledge that it can be beaten is enough keep the vast majority of players happily losing their money and telling their friends “I made enough to pay for the trip.” High five. It’s amazing how many people make enough money in Vegas to pay for the trip, isn’t it? Sometimes I must think I’m the only person who generally loses money when he gambles. No wonder I get comped. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/40 "2009-06-11T23:02:09Z")
> [@King\_Friday](#): > > How do you guys feel about those Player Reward cards? I’ve always felt that I don’t want “them” tracking my winnings, as this might trigger something in the machine to make sure I lose. Am I over-thinking this? I’ve been on quite a run at the video bj lately and don’t want to upset the casino Gods. As mentioned above, use Player Reward cards religiously. My wife and I are strictly minnows, but we haven’t paid for a hotel room in Vegas in 4 years. We get more free room and show offers than we know what to do with. All because we give the casino a shot at our pennies. My spreadsheet shows that so far this year, we are a bit ahead on strictly gambling, and when you factor in the free rooms at Caesars, the free tickets to see Elton John and Fleetwood Mac, and the other freebies you can score, we are well in the black. No matter, we figure that Vegas is how we spend our entertainment dollars. We don’t _expect_ to win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983.md?page=3)