# Electronic/video blackjack **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 7, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983 "2009-06-07T03:26:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/41 "2009-06-11T23:33:17Z")
> [@JonathanTheRed](#): > > It irritates me to hear gamblers described as “suckers”. Some are, undoubtedly. Maybe even most. Certainly anybody who walks into a casino expecting to make money is, with the exceptions of very good poker players or card counters (_edit: or employees_). But others, including myself, are simply making the rational choice to spend money for entertainment. For the purpose of entertainment, people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars sampling fine wines, taking skydiving lessons, attending Broadway musicals, and so forth. Are all these people suckers, or just gamblers? > > When I put $10 on a blackjack table, I know that I can only expect to get $9.90 or so back. And when I put $10 on a movie theater ticket counter, I know that I can expect to get $0 back. Which of these actions would make me a sucker? Good answer. I think it’s fair to say that someone who visits casinos with his eyes open expecting entertainment rather than financial gain is not a sucker at all. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/42 "2009-06-12T00:53:35Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Slightly off topic, but there is actually another casino in driving range of Atlanta. There is a casino cruise operating out of Savannah Ga, so about a 3 hr drive, and then a slight cruise outside Georgia waters. However, they have real cards for their table games, which make it worth while for me. Just thought I would let you know there is another choice. I live in Buford actually, I did find the Cruise in Savannah online… but it is a 4 hour drive for me. As it is, the three hour drive without stopping is about my limit. Also, I would not want to be on someone else’s clock — on a boat no less. I mean, I can handle a boat fine, just don’t like the ““captive audience”” aspect. Casinos have enough of that already. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/43 "2009-06-12T01:02:34Z")
> [@JonathanTheRed](#): > > But others, including myself, are simply making the rational choice to spend money for entertainment. For the purpose of entertainment, people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars sampling fine wines, taking skydiving lessons, attending Broadway musicals, and so forth. Are all these people suckers, or just gamblers? > > When I put $10 on a blackjack table, I know that I can only expect to get $9.90 or so back. And when I put $10 on a movie theater ticket counter, I know that I can expect to get $0 back. Which of these actions would make me a sucker? Exactly the camp I fall into. Further, I know that Slot Machines are not the best games to play, in terms of odds. But, given that most card games start at 10 bucks a hand, you need to keep that in mind. Frankly, I would rather feed a machine with blinking lights 10 bucks over 20 minutes, than give 10 bucks to BJ in just one minute, just because the book says to hit on 16. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/44 "2009-06-12T01:18:21Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > As mentioned above, use Player Reward cards religiously. My wife and I are strictly minnows, but we haven’t paid for a hotel room in Vegas in 4 years. We get more free room and show offers than we know what to do with. All because we give the casino a shot at our pennies. My spreadsheet shows that so far this year, we are a bit ahead on strictly gambling, and when you factor in the free rooms at Caesars, the free tickets to see Elton John and Fleetwood Mac, and the other freebies you can score, we are well in the black. No matter, we figure that Vegas is how we spend our entertainment dollars. We don’t _expect_ to win. You don’t have to answer, but I’m curious as to how much you consider “minnows.” I know a guy that used to get his rooms comped at the Wynn. Last time he went he was told his rating was being changed and if he wanted a similar level comp he’d have to bet $500 a hand for 4+ hours a day. :eek: Sure, that’s the Wynn. But I can’t imagine things are that much different at other properties. FWIW he said screw it and Ballys is happy to give him a room for his action. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/45 "2009-06-12T11:07:16Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > \ > Heh. I like Shuffle Master. I had a ““System”” going to beat let it ride. I got to Vegas, and realized that their idea of a minimum bet, and Real Deal Slots Casino’s (Non-money offline casino software) idea of a minimum bet are two different things. One of the selling points of the Table Masters is their low minimum bet; some people are intimidated by live table games or a $5/$10 minimum bet per hand but they will play $1/hand at a video machine. I wasn’t aware of any Table Master videos in use in Las Vegas when the company no longer required my services last year. I did participate in the first installs in Reno approximately 2 years ago in several small casinos that did not offer live table games. (The funny part was that after we assembled the machines, loaded the software and had them ready to go, it was learned the games were **not** approved in Nevada!?! :eek: We sweated worrying about having to tear down the machines for a few hours until the Nevada Gaming Control Board agreed to allow them to remain as test/demonstration games that they would monitor and determine if it would be approved. This illustrates the difference in regulations in different jurisdictions, the computer and software wouldn’t have gotten in the door in Arizona.) BTW the (5-7?) video dealers have names, the only name I remember is _Jamie_, the brunette in the black dress. 😉 The closest I came to playing the Table Masters were the few times I pulled a $1 bill out of my wallet to test the bill validator or played 1 hand to see if the SAS system/ticket printer was communicating/worked because I didn’t want to wait around for the casino slot techs to sign out a test bill from the cage (it was allowed because there was a casino slot tech and/or Gaming Inspector with me, in addition to Surveillance having been alerted to put a camera on the game). > [@Meeko](#): > > But run this by me again, Shuffle Master bought stuff from Sega?! Wow. I mean, I know Nintendo laid into Sega pretty hard there, but, it is a small world. I generally vaguely recall the Sega games (“certain assets”) coming to Shuffle Master because I was the graveyard service tech dispatcher at the time and thus there were new/different service calls coming in. There were some Sega games installed around the country which Shuffle Master acquired and became responsible for. In my recollection 1 Sega service tech and a couple of programmers came to the Las Vegas office. At some point Shuffle Master developed their own game titles which were approved and the Sega games became Table Master games. Gaming Equipment Firm Shuffle Master Acquiring Assets of Sega Gaming Unit Authored by Mark Hefflinger on April 4, 2003 - 3:11am. Las Vegas – Shuffle Master, a provider of electronic gaming equipment to the casino industry, said on Friday it will acquire certain assets owned by Sega Gaming Technology, a wholly owned subsidiary of Japanese video game maker Sega. and [http://www.casinojournal.com/Archives\_Davinci?article=367](http://www.casinojournal.com/Archives_Davinci?article=367) a Casino Journal article. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/46 "2009-06-13T04:00:21Z")
FWIW I was in vegas July last year. Slots A Fun had Let It Ride. I was so taken back by how hot, crowded, and yes, overly ADHD Vegas was. -This coming from a 26 year old with ADHD. All my plans on what I wanted to do fell apart once I realized how far apart everything was. I mean, I don’t believe people make it to that many casinos on the strip. By the time I got to play Let It Ride, I barely had enough together to remember how to play. Putting up enough money for my system idea was another thing all together. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/47 "2009-06-13T16:54:13Z")
> [@JonathanTheRed](#): > > This really applies between hands? I thought it only kicked in when you cash out. But I don’t play the machines, so what do I know. I’ve hit a royal flush on a quarter poker machine ($1000, higher when it happened on a progressive machine) 4 times, and a dollar machine ($4000) once. Each time, play stops until an attendant & manager come over to check the machine, and pay you the jackpot amount (not the total in the machine) in cash. And to get you to sign the tax form. ---
**Author:** ![JPatSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@JPatSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JPatSD)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/48 "2009-06-16T00:33:31Z")
Hey Turble, thank you for your thoughtful answers on this thread. Above you mentioned the downtown video BJ machines; but I never ran into a good one. Why is it that every video blackjack machine I looked at in Las Vegas had lousy rules? For example at Wynn, video BJ paid even money for a natural. Yet their BJ rules in the high-limit area with two-deck games were good. Why wouldn’t they have at least some machines that had the same rules as their best table games even if the machine “shuffled” every hand? It would be more profitable for the casino as there would be no possibility of card counting and there would be no pit overhead. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/49 "2009-06-16T17:04:27Z")
Thank you for the thank you, JpatSD. Sometimes it’s nice to be appreciated. 😉 Slots and table games are two different animals, controlled by different department heads who are pretty much at odds with each other. Slots are where they make the real money, but to get the full casino license in Nevada they must also provide live games (aside: this is one of the horrendous mistakes a lot of states are making in granting Slots Only casino licenses … the casino operators drool over this). The slot department considers the table games to be a drain that takes up valuable floor space, the table games considers themselves to be the ‘real’ casino … therefore, don’t expect much in the way of coordination between the two. Finding beatable machines in Vegas is a matter of scouting; things are constantly changing. Generally, the farther from the tourist areas you go, the more likely you will be to find good games but there are exceptions. You must look at every individual machine; do not assume that just because they look similar they play the same rules/payoffs … a casino might have dozens of identical machines and one or two that look the same but have a different payoff table or rule set … perhaps to plant a couple of ‘loose’ machines on the floor to be sure there are some payouts taking place to generate excitement, perhaps just because they have a couple older (or newer) machines and might as well use them. It’s not at all uncommon to find rows of identical appearing machines alternating two different payoff schedules, on the theory that a lot of people play two machines at the same time and that way they play one better one and one worse one. The specific machines I was thinking of when I wrote that earlier post were in the Golden Nugget … don’t know if they are still there right now but if you check, they looked just like standard video poker machines but played single deck BJ with a $1 to $25 bet and favorable Strip Rules … no edge with basic strategy but good enough to gain an edge by varying playing strategy according to the count. The real money on machines like that come from the cash back and/or comps from the player’s club card. “Why?” is a much more difficult question than “How?” With a good book or two and maybe some practice software most anyone can learn how to find and beat machines. Why they exist and why some casinos use them is … well … some out of the way places might choose loose machines to try to attract business, (correctly) figuring that most people won’t bother learning how to beat them anyway … some simply might not realize that some of their machines are beatable … sometimes they make (big) mistakes in calculating the value of promotions … on and on this could go but I fear we’re getting way off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/50 "2009-06-16T21:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > My last trip to Vegas, I had a complimentary room, $200 in complimentary casino chips (can only be bet, not cashed, and are lost whether the bet wins or loses), and $50 in complimentary room credit. Couldn’t you “launder” those chips by betting them all on low-edge, low-variance games, though? ---
**Author:** ![JonathanTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JonathanTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonathanTheRed)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/51 "2009-06-16T22:26:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Couldn’t you “launder” those chips by betting them all on low-edge, low-variance games, though? They could only be wagered on even-money bets. They also come only in black ($100) and cannot be broken up. I decided to toss 'em on blackjack… actually, funny story. My father was standing with me. I put the first chip down and lost it quickly. Then I put the second chip down. As the dealer was dealing, my father asked, “What happens if you need to double or split?” I answer, “Then I dig out my wallet and put down a hundred dollar bill.” Just as I finished saying this, the dealer finished dealing: 6 face-up for her, pair of 9s for me. So, true to my word, I dig out my wallet and put down a hundred dollar bill. The dealer deals me a 6 on the first 9, I stay, and she deals me a 9 on the second 9. So I dig out yet _another_ hundred, get another 6, and a 4. Lucky for me, the dealer did in fact bust and I got paid. But it was a little nerve-wracking. I usually play quarters. ---
**Author:** ![JPatSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@JPatSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JPatSD)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983/52 "2009-06-17T18:28:45Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > Thank you for the thank you, JpatSD. Sometimes it’s nice to be appreciated. 😉 > > Slots and table games are two different animals, controlled by different department heads who are pretty much at odds with each other. Slots are where they make the real money, but to get the full casino license in Nevada they must also provide live games (aside: this is one of the horrendous mistakes a lot of states are making in granting Slots Only casino licenses … the casino operators drool over this). The slot department considers the table games to be a drain that takes up valuable floor space, the table games considers themselves to be the ‘real’ casino … therefore, don’t expect much in the way of coordination between the two. > > Finding beatable machines in Vegas is a matter of scouting; things are constantly changing. Generally, the farther from the tourist areas you go, the more likely you will be to find good games but there are exceptions. You must look at every individual machine; do not assume that just because they look similar they play the same rules/payoffs … a casino might have dozens of identical machines and one or two that look the same but have a different payoff table or rule set … perhaps to plant a couple of ‘loose’ machines on the floor to be sure there are some payouts taking place to generate excitement, perhaps just because they have a couple older (or newer) machines and might as well use them. It’s not at all uncommon to find rows of identical appearing machines alternating two different payoff schedules, on the theory that a lot of people play two machines at the same time and that way they play one better one and one worse one. > > The specific machines I was thinking of when I wrote that earlier post were in the Golden Nugget … don’t know if they are still there right now but if you check, they looked just like standard video poker machines but played single deck BJ with a $1 to $25 bet and favorable Strip Rules … no edge with basic strategy but good enough to gain an edge by varying playing strategy according to the count. The real money on machines like that come from the cash back and/or comps from the player’s club card. > > “Why?” is a much more difficult question than “How?” With a good book or two and maybe some practice software most anyone can learn how to find and beat machines. Why they exist and why some casinos use them is … well … some out of the way places might choose loose machines to try to attract business, (correctly) figuring that most people won’t bother learning how to beat them anyway … some simply might not realize that some of their machines are beatable … sometimes they make (big) mistakes in calculating the value of promotions … on and on this could go but I fear we’re getting way off topic. Interesting, I hadn’t looked at it that way before. And I will definitely scout around on my next trip. (Your guess was correct; I only looked at the BJ rules on one machine in each casino, and only on the strip.) So now I know. Thanks again and best regards, JP [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/electronic-video-blackjack/498983.md?page=2)