Electronic voting machines cheat another Democrat out of an election

The BBQ Pit
101

As long as we’re getting nerdgasmic here, I’ll just note that I’ve programmed in dinosaur languages like FORTRAN, Cobol, Lisp, and assembler, and modern new-fangled languages like C++, Java, PHP, and Perl, and worked on matters of computer security and encryption and validation, and have led large software teams complete with peer reviews and QC and turnover processes, and still thinks Blaster Master should stop talking out of his posterior and learn some humility.

(Oh, yah, and I’ve got my post-graduate CompSci degree too, so there nyah. :stuck_out_tongue: )

102

Notable acheivements, to be sure. One can only hope they have healed the crippling wounds inflicted, having your lunch money taken by kids from the Debate Squad and the Drama Club.

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[hijack]
Actually, truth be told, I never programmed on a mainframe at all. I started professionally on minis (DEC PDP 11s), and in 1980 started on micros, although not with the Windows OS. Or Apple. It was a small company called Convergent Technologies, and the operating system was called CTOS. As a distributor, my company, Burroughs (subsequently Unisys), called it BTOS. The cool thing about it was that you could have straight out of the box networking, although it wasn’t peer-to-peer; it was Server/Clusters (the desktops that all could talk to the Server, originally called a Master, btw). As time went on, they also made it possible to add on additional disks and other peripherals by the simply clunking them together and levering a lock on them. It was, in many ways, a much better OS than Windows. Problem was, they focused on business sales, and didn’t bother to implement much in the way of home-use software like games. When managers went to make their business choices, they tended to pick the OS they already knew from home: Windows. So CTOS/BTOS eventually went down the tubes. In '91, I took a hiatus from programming and went back to college to get my degree in Psych with an idea to becoming a psychologist. The problem was, despite my ridiculously high grades and GRE scores, I wasn’t able to get into graduate school; whatever they were looking for, I apparently wasn’t offering it, even though I graduated 3rd in a class of 12000+ and had 780s and 790s on my GREs. So I went back into programming and was ultimately profoundly grateful. I discovered that it hadn’t been programming I was burnt out on, it had been the Unisys job. So I’ve been programming on Micros ever since, first GUI, and then on to Oracle, where I’ve been ever since. I *love * PL/SQL, Oracles basic programming language! It does exactly what you want it to do, and it integrates SQL directly into the language. It’s truly a thing of beauty - it just sings. I hope to finish out my career in Oracle; I don’t think I’ll ever get tired of it.

While PL/SQL doesn’t have precise Object Oriented Programming, it has a thing called Packages which basically amounts to the same thing: the interfaces are available, while the innards aren’t visible to anyone but the programmer. But there’s no inheritance as there is in OOP. Doesn’t bother me; cut and paste usually gets the job done, and it’s rare to have a situation in which precise inheritance would be all that useful anyway.

Of course, I haven’t worked in two months anyway, because I’m having dizzy spells that make it unsafe to drive and even if I could get rides, the motion alone would probably be sufficient to bring on the spells and make me pretty useless at work. Standing also can bring them on, plus lately I’ve been getting the occasional spell for no apparent reason whatsoever (like when I’m reading or typing). It shows no signs of getting better, and I’m beginning to wonder if this isn’t a permanent thing. For me, it would be ideal; being a total couch/computer potato, this ailment prevents me from doing anything I DON’T want to do while allowing me to do pretty much anything I DO enjoy. I don’t feel ill, just dizzy sometimes, so it’s not like I’m miserable (unless I get dizzy at work - the idea of a 25 mile drive when your head is whirling terrifies me. I’ve had to do it three times now (I thought the spells were over and went to work, but it turned out they weren’t over after all), and it’s not fun and it’s not safe.

The problem, of course, is money. I’m not at all sure I can afford myself on Disability, assuming I could get it. (I don’t see how they could turn me down; what job doesn’t involve driving, standing/walking, reading or typing?) The docs don’t know what it is, but are assuming it’s some kind of inner ear thing. I’m supposed to have a CAT-Scan soon, but the doctor’s office is dragging its feet on getting the Pre-Cert, because one of their two office staff is on vacation. That’s why I’ve been posting so much lately.

As I said, I feel fine and am enjoying the time off mightily, so there’s no need to extend sympathy. It’s just a little nerve-wracking. My employer has been wonderfully supportive, but they can’t keep this up forever! Neither the doctors nor I can give them any kind of real estimate as to when I’ll be back, which puts them in a very difficult position.

All I can do at this point is wait. And post to the SDMB, and play Neverwinter Nights. Great fun!
[/hijack]

104

Are you kidding? Us ubergeeks spent all of our lunch hours and afterschool time huddled around the TRS-80/Apple IIs and were completely overlooked by the jocks down at the cafeteria. :wink:

105

What, he didn’t mention the time the Chess club beat him up?

106

Just be happy that the Tu Quoquists no longer can point to McKinney as a “typical Democrat”. The fewer excuses they have for avoiding the acceptance of responsibility, the better off we’ll all be.

107

By this time, he had been chosen by the Audio Visual Club as their bitch, so they would have to get permission from the foreign kid with the pocket protector and the slide rule.

108

Yes it is, but an argument from authority is only fallacious if the subject doesn’t relate to the authority’s credentials. For example:

FALLACY: “I am an experienced programmer, so believe me when I tell you that supply-side economics doesn’t work.”
NOT A FALLACY: “I am an experienced programmer, so believe me when I tell you that this program would be easy to write.”

A bit late, I know, but people misuse the term “argument from authority” all the time.

(My bachelor’s degree in CS is only a few months old so I obviously know fuck all about the main subject of the thread, but I was on the debate team in high school. That counts for something, right?)

109

I can see how that would be a problem. I’m not sure, but I suspect the A/Vs could take out the Chess Club if they really wanted to.

Goodnight, all!

110

Oh, sure – the AV kids would just roll their equipment stands right over the Chess kids. Splat!

111

Oh, sure – the AV kids would just roll their equipment stands right over the Chess kids. Splat!

112

ReHijack: Oy said “Of course, I haven’t worked in two months anyway, because I’m having dizzy spells that make it unsafe to drive and even if I could get rides, the motion alone would probably be sufficient to bring on the spells and make me pretty useless at work. Standing also can bring them on, plus lately I’ve been getting the occasional spell for no apparent reason whatsoever (like when I’m reading or typing). It shows no signs of getting better, and I’m beginning to wonder if this isn’t a permanent thing. For me, it would be ideal; being a total couch/computer potato, this ailment prevents me from doing anything I DON’T want to do while allowing me to do pretty much anything I DO enjoy. I don’t feel ill, just dizzy sometimes, so it’s not like I’m miserable (unless I get dizzy at work - the idea of a 25 mile drive when your head is whirling terrifies me. I’ve had to do it three times now (I thought the spells were over and went to work, but it turned out they weren’t over after all), and it’s not fun and it’s not safe.”
Tha is what has been happening to me for several years now, which is lots of fun since I"m a woodworker by trade and spend a lot of time sttanding over sharp things going around very fast. Have your doctors checked out Menieires syndrom? Not that there is much treatment available, but it helps to know what is going on, if that is what is going on.

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Sorry, meant to add: http://www.bme.jhu.edu/labs/chb/disorders/menieres.html

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My aunt has Minieres, so of course that was a thought for me, although thank you! Just had a hearing test Thursday; it’s absolutely perfect, and I have no more pressure or ringing in my ears than I normally have had (which is to say, occasional and slight, like anyone else). So Miniere’s seems unlikely.

115

Having a job that requires access to potentially sensitive government information, I am familiar with government computer security procedures and aware that they require people to follow them. Yes, people occassionally forget to lock their computers, myself included. Occassionally there are breaches of security. However, the higher the level of security, the harder is is to get that level of access, the more conscientious people are about following the rules and the more likely they are to notice when they’ve been breached.

Yes, you COULD gain access to it, because they are expecting that simple line of security to keep honest people honest. The fact is, yes, there is no perfect security and you could eventually gain access to it no matter how encrypted it is. You’ve just demonstrated one of the points I was trying to make earlier. Why should the guy who’s job it is to move the files trust you that its the same code the guy tested? Shouldn’t the code be coming from the tester? If not, it should be.

My point wasn’t that security is perfect, or that there aren’t security holes, or that it was done as well as it could be. It was simply that things COULD and SHOULD be done this way. I think the design process and access to the innerworkings of a voting machine do pose a threat to national security and should require the a security clearance. AGAIN, if its not that way now, heads should roll… BUT, electronic voting machines certainly are not a threat to the democratic process as the person over whom this pit was started asserted.

Any level of security, even TS or SCI can and have been compromised. MY point was that the levels of QC and levels of secuirty make it a lot harder for inadvertant or malicious bugs to get through. It will unlikely ever be perfect… but with a level of security and with all that QC, its NOT a threat to our democracy and is preferable to paper ballots.

116

To return to the subject of the OP, it turns out it wasn’t the election machines after all. It was those damn Jews that caused McKinney to lose.

So I guess that’s good news, right?

117

So it looks like you concede it would take more than one person more than one day to do the coding?

Except you’re forgetting that there’s a lot more to this sort of project than just the software. You have hardware engineers, electrical engineers, network engineers, designers… You have many counties in many states coming to these companies with their requirements for these voting machines, and you think they wouldn’t have a multi-million dollar development contract?

This is straight up BS. As a contractor to the federal government, part of my job is extensive software/hardware testing, and I’m not even in the group whose primary job it is to do this testing. They literally spend weeks and sometimes months testing various pieces of equipment and software packages. You’d be hardpressed to convince me the review process would be somehow significantly less stringent for a voting machine.

I don’t know where you all are getting this from, but I never argued that the machines were perfect and that they weren’t hacked or whatever. I’m arguing that they could be made secure so that they’re not a threat to democracy and that they’re superior to paper ballots. Please stop with this tired strawman.

This is further lack of reading comprehension on your part. I was not refering to object oriented programming when I was talking about the software development process. That is, the entired design and implementation process is completely different… development cycles, testing… all that sort of stuff. Even from when I started in this field (much more recently than you), I’ve seen huge changes in the entire process to the point where I wouldn’t recognize it or be able to contribute effectively without the intervening knowledge.

118

Look, another person you lacks the ability to comprehend what he reads. Considering I used the words “Software Development”, I would have guessed you knew I was refering to software development and not changes in programming languages and practices and paradigms. Nice try though, with a little more effort you might actually make a point in your next post.

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So what part was I talking out of my posterior about? My claim is that electronic ballots can be made more secure than paper ballots. Everyone is so up in a tizzy over how Diebold failed to implement it, and failed to address the point of “voting machines are a threat to democracy.” Do you honestly believe that is true?

120

Actually it is a fallacy, but the fallacy was mislabelled. He said he’d been programming since 1977 and asked how old I was? The fact that he’s been programming since 1977 allows him to claim a level of expertise, just as my Master’s degree and current studies allow me to claim a level of expertise as well. However, the fact that I’m younger than him does not have any bearing on the verocity of my arguments. Arguing that his age somehow adds validity to his argument, or my relative youth removes validity from my argument is a logical fallacy. If I remember correctly, this one is known as argument ad antiquitatem.

Though one could also interpret it in a similar form to what you posted above: “I am older than you, so believe me when I tell you that this program would be easy to write” That could conceivably make it also an argument from authority.